The idea was to keep that 3rd pedal off the floor and being able to operate the clutch comfortably. I have a BDL open primary on my bike and it has a super-stiff clutch so not incredibly worried about that. Biggest concern would be operating it in tight places such as parking lots and such. Checked out the site Dreddybear found and that's a good possibility also. Thanks
...to his deaf cat,,, I'm trying to figure out how the linkage from the handle on the shifter would connect to the hydraulic cylinder?
keep in mind that your left hand is already 'trained' to operate a clutch if you ride a motorcycle but your right hand is used to operating a brake which is a different feeling all together. this right hand clutch deal would be like trying to operate the gas pedal in a car with your left foot. it'll probably take some retraining before you're able to do it smoothly.
What about an electronic servo that'd 'pull' or 'push' the clutch arm at the push of a button, then release it when the button is depressed? That'd do away with the handle and strength needed issue regarding depressing the clutch while trying to shift. The button could even be rigged into the top of most shifters. I know there are door popper mechanisms that operate upwards of 100 pounds, and that should be sufficient to operate most clutches, but you'd have to figure out how to get the length of the throw from engaged to disengaged, etc. Should be able to be done easily enough. At least I'd think so.
That would work, but you wouldn't be able to "feather" the clutch, it would either engage or disengage...but still, it's an idea worth pursuing.
"you mount a trigger on front of your shifter like the old Hurst vertigates " Or a combo of these ideas, a trigger big enough for your whole hand on front and back of the shifter. When you pull back for second, you pull with the trigger at the same time. When you push forward for third, push the other trigger, and so on. May not need the electronic gizmo then.
I have built a few cars/race cars that have hand clutches, and I have been using street bike hydraulic brake/clutch perches. I then run the fluid through a datsun slave cylinder. I mount the clutch lever on the shifter, it makes it easier to concentrate on the shift, and I have found through myself, and customers that it doesn't really matter what hand you use, but most people are used to shifting with the right so the clutch and shifter tend to be on the right. I takes a little getting used to, but a couple of times, and you don't even think about it.
What im having trouble following here is this: Harley clutch is WAY different than a car clutch. The old 4 speeds that used a mouse trap for added pull with a cable, The but of the lever moves a bit less than 3 inches to pull the cable about 3/4 inch yes ? That 3/4 inch of cabe travel moves the 8 inch long clutch bar that rotates the clutch bar and that has yet another multiplied leverage movement to move the clutch rod about an 1/8 of an inch. Is nobody looking at all of the leverage multiplication needed to move the relatively puny Harley clutch release 1/8 of an inch? Even the 5 and 6 speeds use a large leverage multiplier to move the release just a tiny bit. Automotive clutch is alot heavier and needs to move alot more than a harley clutch Am I missing something here? Even using hydro you still have to move enough fluid in the mcyl to move the slave. Bore and stroke of the mcly equals a particular volume vs the Volume needed to move the slave or throwout bearing. You would wind up at a mechanical fluid transfer disadvantage. Did anybody else pay attention in 8th grade science class, am I the only geek, or am I completly missing something ? could somebody give me a clue If there was enough room for all that shit there would be enough room for a clutch pedal.
What if you ran some type of rheostat (SP?)? Something that would give you a level of voltage that could be managed through squeezing a button or hand grip similar to a motorcycle clutch handle? Which of the ancient Greek philosophers was it who said "Give me a lever and I can move the world?" (or something like that) Anyway, this was sort of where I was going with my original post. I think the OPs problem was that there wasn't enough room in the floorboard area for a 3rd pedal, but he wanted a manual trans regardless and was looking at ideas to run one. There are all sorts of ways to run this type of setup, and to run a system that'd move the clutch arm enough distance to operate it. Someone just has to figure out the details. I had an idea that I hoped someone would contemplate, and it has been contemplated, and now might be refined. Necessity is the mother of invention.
ok help me out here, I'm not an expert but a student. Here are two veiws of the Datsun slave cly. set up and one of the actual part. I see a very large amount of leverage of the cluthch pedal on the master cyl-applied with the two levers in your leg-thru your foot-to move the mc plunger its full stroke. This movement moves the slave cyl its designed amount of stroke to move the throw out bearing significantly less. There is also a Harley master cyl for clutch use. I'm having difficulty seeing how this could work. The plunger is smaller, the stroke is shorter the lever length on harley unit is less and the hand is smaller and weeker than the leg yet the slave is to move the same distance. ? I am even having trouble seeing enough fluid in the Motorcycle unit for the transfer? It hard to tell from pics but Im going to guess that the slave needs to move twice as far as the the motorcycle mc strokes, The only way could happen is if the bore on the slave was smaller than the rod on the slave, that would tend to fail where it was stepped to retrack into the bore let alone be impossible to manufacture. Perhaps the piston is stepped and the slave has steped bore ? There is "no free luch" anywhere ever so where does all this movement of the slave come from ? what about the leverage? again not an expert but a student, thanks
quit a few folks who have nothing better to do than make smart-ass comments Those people are trying to help you - by pointing out how much more complicated and difficult it's going to be, so you don't waste your time on dead ends. No one here wants anyone's project to fail.
There is "no free luch" anywhere ever so where does all this movement of the slave come from ? what about the leverage? Simple: You can have a reasonable amount of hand lever travel and normal clutch disc throw-out motion - with huge effort Or, you can have normal disc motion, with normal effort - but very long lever travel (far beyond Andre the Giant's grip) Or, you can have a reasonable amount of lever travel and normal effort - if the disc only moves .0001". Or, you can have a reasonable amount of lever travel, normal lever effort, and release movement - if the clutch spring pack is 100 lbs. (instead of 3,000). Trying to do this by juggling just these 4 variables (hand lever travel, hand lever effort, clutch throw distance, clutch spring tension) is like counting the same 3 dimes and a nickel again and again: it's still 35¢. That's why it needs an external power source.
I dont like to see to see peoples ideas or projects put down. A buch of folks telling somebody else something wont work to be a smart-ass or an expert is not a real good motivator most of the time. Bouncing Ideas is always a good thing and leads to a better product or another idea that works better. BUT people claiming to be defing the laws of physics and who are no longer bound by meer human capabilities .... well sometimes you got to call bs.
its funny how this thread came up today cause i was wondering if anyone has experience running hydraulic t-out bearings.i didnt have room for a clutch fork due to the z in my frame and the way the floor/tunnel laid out.bought a hyd. t-out bearing from speedway but i'm always leary of non-conventional methods. in your situation , i know a guy {paul cox} who used a twist throttle with an internal cable that ran to a bellcrank that operated the m/c under the gas tank of his bike.worked pretty slick.
I'm missing something here, how are we defying the laws of physics? And who said they were no longer bound by "mere" human capabilities? If something doesn't look to you like it's going to work, then point that out clearly and concisely so others can understand what you're saying. Making a blanket statement about something is well, b.s., like YOU said...
My brother's a parapalegic, yet has put his manual-trans racecar in the winner's circle with a hydraulic, hand operated clutch. It was a bit of trial and error with various master cylinders and lever ratios, but it's done now and works well. He did put a steering quickener in the car so he didn't have to turn the wheel so far, and for that reason I'm not sure it would work in a street application, but you never know until you try.
How far does the hydraulic slave cylinder mounted on the bellhousing actually move the clutch arm? It can't be more than a few inches, can it? If we're looking at the amount of fluid necessary to actuate that cylinder, then we ARE looking at leverage, the amount of pressure needed at the hand control to actuate that much fluid in a fairly short stroke (squeezing the handle). If we use a hydraulic hand lever, like a Harley's, then we are pushing fluid through a line into the slave cylinder. The biggest issue I see is sizing the slave cylinder for the amount of fluid that we can move by hand. I imagine that if the lever on the shifter is separated from the reservoir by a linkage, a sufficient amount of offset (or leverage) can be applied to make this setup functional... Then again, I am just a figment of my own deranged imagination, so what the heck do I know?
...as he picked up his hammer and saw. Ram makes a dual disc street clutch, that's a great way to dramatically reduce the operating effort, probably down to a level where you could hand operate it without increasing the lever throw to an unworkable distance. Here's a link - http://www.ramclutches.com/Specialty products/Street_dual_2.htm For calculation's sake, around 250-325 lbs at the throwout bearing is reasonable effort on a motorcycle. Your BDL clutch could be as high as 500 lbs. Y'know, if you take the synchronizers out and grind every other tooth off the sliders you can shift your transmission without the clutch, just match the engine rpm to the road speed like a truck driver. Leave 1st alone so it doesn't grind going into 1st. Feels really slick, like there's nothing on the end of the shifter. Just a thought. On edit - A motorcycle throwout bearing only moves about .065".
zookeeper just barely beat me to it. I haven't done this but can easily imagine how it can be done, having worked a hyd clutch on 2 cars (62 C10 & 86 300zx) and a motorcycle (kaw1500). vicky31, if you look at your first picture, note that the pedal moves 'a lot' while the plunger moves 'a little'. Yeah, those are the technical terms Anyway, a bit of trial and error with a hyd master and slave (I'm thinking of my m'cycle clutch master) and you should be able to do this. Moving the fulcrum away from the throwout bearing on (for example) a 62 C10 bellhousing (hydraulic) and then 'shimming' the slave to compensate could (should?) do what you want.
A friend of mine broke his leg badly many years go in a motorcycle crash and had a cast that went from his ankle to his hip. His only car at the time was an early Mini-Cooper with a hydraulic clutch. He welded a piece of motorcycle handlebar to the top of the shift lever and fitted the master cylinder for a Honda 750 motorcycle to the bar. The whole setup worked great and he even kept it on the car after his leg healed.
Hand clutch? No problem. Notice this one is used with a hydraulic throwout bearing. The same could also be accompished using a hydraulic slave cylinder. The master cylinder used on the Golden Submarine pictured here is available from Wilwood, CNC and Howe..probably others as well.
Thanks for the pic kustomf100- Im seeing a very long lever attached on that master cyl. and a lot of stroke. How far would you guess that lever moves, about 18" maybe to stoke the cyl 2" a 9-1 ratio with your whole arm. hmmm. That's a wild ride. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=265icrI3HkM This explains most of it up to about the 8 min mark. This is video is an over simplified version of this clutch discussion, the ratio's need to and will remain constant no matter what, If you revese things as explained in the lecture you would need 1000 units to move 10 units, he hits on that point at the 8:10 ish mark. Pascals Principal, not mine. If you want some more on mechanical advantage look up Archimedes also, the earliest known explanatory and mathematical study of levers and hydrostatics. These are 10s of centuries old laws of physics and have gone un-challenged untill today. The mechanical advantage on my Harley clutch with a cable is about 12 to 1 .The amount of force required to pull it is over 30 lbs. of grip. 12x30=360 lbs on a puny 7'" clutch before the last internal lever. That bike weighs about 850lbs w/me on it and puts out 108 hp on a 103 ci motor and it slips a bit on real hard acceleration. hydraulic aplication would not change the clutch pressure or amount of lever travel. using a motorcycle mcyl with a bore the same size as the the slave cyl would mean that you need to pull the lever with exactly as much force as the the slave pushes on the clutch fork to move it the same the mcyl strokes witch is not enough anyway. Not going to happen. Or you need a larger bore on the mcyl to move the slave the required amount and that means you need to pull the lever with more force than it takes to move the clutch fork. That damn sure aint going to happen. Moving the pivot away from the throwout bearing make the movement less but will require more force, make it harder yet as will shortening the the fork. Thats not going to happen. Perhaps, maybe a hyd throwout bearing might require much less fluid to move it but thats a reach because the fluid needs to fill the entire ring and that has more surface area than the slave piston however it wont need to move as far. Those setups usually have a pretty big master to move a lot of fluid though. Panic put it real simple a few posts back. When giving up a huge amount of leveage in the pedal it needs to go someplace.
Once again, why can't the leverage be regained through linkage on the stick in conjunction with the lever? If a larger master cylinder is utilized over the slave cylinder, wouldn't this alleviate some of the force necessary to exercise the lever? If I move more fluid at the master cylinder than at the slave cylinder (larger bore) won't this give me a mechanical advantage over the clutch arm?
why can't the leverage be regained through linkage on the stick in conjunction with the lever? The master cly only pushes the amount of fluid it is designed to limited by bore and stroke, Some mechanical advantage could be gained by manipulating the pivots on the master but then the amount of stroke would change to be less, moving less fluid. The lever could be made much longer but out of the range of what a human hand could reach. If a larger master cylinder is utilized over the slave cylinder, wouldn't this alleviate some of the force necessary to exercise the lever? If the bore of the mcly is larger than the bore of the slave, the effort required to move the lever against the load of the pressure plate would be propotionatly increased. The travel of the slave would be more but the effort to move the lever would be much GREATER If I move more fluid at the master cylinder than at the slave cylinder (larger bore) won't this give me a mechanical advantage over the clutch arm? If i read this correctly, Moving more fluid with a larger bore master will make it harder to move.Loss of mechanical advantage but increased travel, If the slave has a larger bore, the effort would be less, an increase of mechanical advantage but much less travel. try to think of the jack analogy or better yet an engine hoist. 1st mechanical advantage is the length of pipe in the clevis on the hoist. 2nd advanage is the very small bore of the small pin on the hoist at the base of the ram. 3rd advantage is the large bore of the ram Now how many times do you have to push down on the pipe a movement of 18" (on my hoist) to get the ram to move up an inch? Mine is about 15 pumps or 18x15=270 inches of pumps to get 1 inch of movement at the ram. the hoist has a mechanical disadvantage in how the ram is mounted at the pivot, But a distance advantage, you gain increased movement with it. If the ram comes up an inch how far does the end of the boom move ? its about 2" on mine. my hoist has a 4 ton ram but can lift only 2 tons, why because of the trade distance for strength. Most two ton floor jacks stroke a 12 ton ram about about 6 inches, and lift only 2 tons but 24" high.
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