Sorry but that's a lame excuse, you're pushing your own poor business practice onto the customer. If you're not making money with your shop rate, then raise your rate. The customer expects work for his hour billed, not a bunch of whining that your rates are too low to be profitable....so you're not working. The best money you can spend is hiring a proper business consultant to come in and tell you what your hourly rate should be. You're too close to the situation for an objective answer and are leaving profit on the table. Have walked this path with several small businesses thru my employers and those shops sounded exactly like you at the start. Re read your own words. The business is doing something it's not making money on. Why are you doing it? It's a business not a charity. The extent of the rust doesn't make one bit of difference, an hour of work is an hour of profitable billed labor, or your business will go bankrupt. Period. good luck
Just started reading this thread and i dont think thats what the guy asked.. I think he knows it aint cheap he wants a time frame and a cost estimate... unless your referring to the guy that started this thread by stating the guys doing the work dont know.. The you are prolly correct.. id pull the thing but id also follow the other advice and show up with an attorney as it may be a good way to cover his ass from any law suit from them.... Dave
Guys I appreciate the view points, and examples The receipts/invoice record keeping is me...I have 2 harleys and have made every attempt to keep each part purchased, gas/oil receipt in a binder. Someday if I sell the bikes (not likely anytime soon) the new owner will know exactly what's been done, when, where what was bought from who, the instruction sheets that came with the parts, and generally what the upkeep and costs were - yeah, it's anal I don't care about the shop's cost - black 'em out, cross 'em out, erase 'em, tear the costs out...whatever, determining their profit margin isn't the object of the record keeping. The shop is a hot rod shop - nothing else - just rebuilds/restoration only, 5 guys in-house and about 10 others projects in various forms of completion. They are used to dealing with high dollar customers who can afford to fly their wrecks in from all over the world and let them sit for years - cost and time are not an issue apparently. I'm not one of them. I do call 2-3 times a month - and I do use e-mail...I do try and keep any aggravations or suspicions in check. I don't necessarily believe in biting the hand that feeds you...or the mechanic. Heated words have never been exchanged, but their refusals have resulted in my wondering if I shouldn't go elsewhere. I do understand there are outside vendors and part delays beyond control of the shop. I understand if a shop told a customer this job is going to cost you 150,000.00 to do it right the average customer would run - even if the shop owner was low-balling the actual costs, I can understand their initial concerns discussing finished price. I don't have any illusions here so I understand the sensativity of revealling the price., I believe I trust this shop's mechanic's abilities - and knowing what they have to do to make it perfect and do it right. I expect nothing less from any professional. My main objections is for the money spent I don't think requesting redacted (blacked out) manufacture invoices are out of line. I don't believe it should be such an imposition to expect a time line for completion - delays not withstanding. One friend told me it took his brother 3 years to get his mercedes done, another told me 4 years for his corvette. These are show cars. I want my truck to be a solid driver - it's not going up for a Barret Jackson bid. I suspect with the flow of commentary I've recieved so far here, it would be best to sit down with the shop - express my expectations and if they can't be met - make a determination to let 'em finish, or haul it away.
It sounds like you are a professional and will handle it accordingly and I appreciate your comments and giving us a little more detail on the issue. Please let us know what what the outcome is, and good luck with your project.
Sounds like you've got it figured out on your ride, but you've learned to pre-set your needs before the next shop starts. I've been involved with this sport a long time and have travel around the country with my job and have seen over and over awesome craftsmen that decide that they can open up a shop a make it on their talents alone and don't have clue how to run a business most of them don't make it but screw a lot of customers before the doors close,
What they said!!!! Get some pics and let us see what we've all been debating over!!!! Best of luck!!!!
what I have seen done to this point. the body is placed back on frame to see how motor and trans fits. You can see it's been primed - and rust issues that would have been visible have been repaired. You can see the new fire wall...it was put in to make room for the motor. body: motor: trans:
I dropped off my 66 volvo when I came home on leave from Iraq in feb of 2007,to have the engine/trans(simple 2.9 ford v6 with auto) rebuilt and the brakes redone.I came back in sept of 07,I didnt get the car until the end of jan 08.I told him I wanted the car,Im tired of waiting,finish what you have done.Unfortunately no warranty b/c the car lasted a couple months before over heating problems and a few others.I dont care for mechanic shops at all.
So the question is - who in the Houston area can pick up on this build - should I decide things aren't going to work out the way I want?
Nice looking truck! Pics show an orderly shop and cleanly executed work. That might be a lot harder to find than a compromise with your current builder. good luck either way
I wouldn't make a decision until you have your pow-wow with the guy!!! Or give him your demand/requirements letter!!! There has got to be other shops in your area....even if not, you may find a shop a little further away that can do what you want and be willing to communicate by email with detailed jpegs to keep ya updated!!!
You miss the entire point, I make more profit on wrecks. Most customers want a price for a build up front, which is almost impossible to calculate when doing a full restoration or custom. My business is growing steadily every month. We have beat all of our projections, and are preparing to expand, but I will probably stop doing full restos. The fact is, even if we could charge $150 an hour for resto work, and had customers that would pay it, I make more money fixing wrecks. They take less time, and time is money...
Again, a reasonable target date based on your abilities is not impossible! A reasonable estimate is not impossible! It is the customers responsiblity to understand the target date and estimate, and your responsibility to communicate any delays or changes. Using this method both the customer and the service provider should have no complaints. Failure to provide these 2 items to the prospective customer erodes your credibility as a business and possibly your ability as a builder!! I mean no offense, But if a business can't do this, maybe they shouldn't take on that type of project!!! By the same token, if a prospective customer is not willing to understand that these are targets and estimates based on what is known today (much like the collision estimate) then you should refuse to accept their business!!!
No, I understand that aspect of the game entirely. You're too close man, step back and see the forest thru the trees. A customer walks in your door and wants to hire you for the rate you advertise, cash in hand. But there's already a problem. The customer has ENTIRELY agreed to your terms, but yet they're not good enough terms for you to provide proper service. Do you see the flaw in that business model? You set yourself up to fail by agreeing to price it for less than it's worth. Customer has nothing to do with it, you made a poor business choice allowing him in the door under that price structure. Now the poor guy is in body shop hell because you can't price your own service. You are probably an extraordinary bodyman, but you're leaving profit at the table. So what will happen if you raise your rates to where an hour of labor on restoration work turns profit? Are you afraid it will scare away all the unprofitable work you don't want to do anyway? There's a lot of circular logic going on in body shops around this country. Seems to be the attitude that if there's a bunch of cars in the shop, it's doing well. When the reality is it's not how many are in the shop, it's how many you're putting out profitably. If you can't see the difference, time for a business consultant. Otherwise all you do is stress out with extra work and extra employees that aren't actually making you money.
Bypassing the off topic arguments... Big Easy, Your rig looks like it's in a good state. The shop looks clean and in order. It sounds (from you) like they're a well known, well respected, professional business. A year on a full restoration/custom job on a panel truck like that is not enough time for a shop of the caliber you described to do the work they do IMHO. It sounds kinda dumb, but you may have taken it to too good of a shop if you really want a driver out of her, but that's beside the point. In my opinion, from the pics you put up and the descriptions you've given it seems like they're making reasonable progress on your ride (reasonable, not great, maybe a little slow, but still reasonable), and they are giving you the invoices they produce (though not the invoices they've recieved) for parts, labor, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong here). On the other hand, you seem like an intelligent, competent, and reasonable person, who asked a reasonable question that may have been abused along this thread. You might be a bit over the top in records keeping, but everybody has their quirks. You want your truck done, and that's not wrong. You deserve a ballpark figure for time if not money, and the shop's responses so far (understaffed for instance) are lame excuses. Those statements upheld, I suggest you stick with the shop. Bullying them as has been suggested will get you nowhere. Pulling your project does not get you any closer to the detailed invoices you want, and risks even further delays for your project. Your only real option to get the two things you're after is to get on positive terms with the shop manager/owner (or both). I'm not saying you have to be buddy buddy, but developing a little more than a strictly cold business relationship is your only shot at really having your pie and eating it too. Best of luck to you, whatever you decide.
I send work to my competitors regularly because the particular customer wants a service for a price I can't deliver. The job may well have some margin of profit if you cut enough corners, but we don't do that kind of work. Better to let another shop deal with that customer, and save myself the headaches. Chances are, he is the very customer you cannot make happy anyway. We have built our business on doing the best work possible, in the fastest turn. There may well be some profit left on the table as you suggest, by not doing the resto-custom type jobs. When you look at the profit margins of regular collision work vs the customs, the collisions have a higher profit margin. If you count every stall for it's maximum potential, it soon becomes clear that you can't afford to have one taken up for anything resembling long term. Just as you allude to, it's all about productivity, you don't have to be an accountant to understand that. Show me a custom shop that turns the gross we do in a month, if there is one, it is the exception...
Forgive me, but you guys are killing me on the invoice deal. I build a certain amount of skateboard grind rails and as I walk them into the skateshops and put them on the floor, I turn around and give the skate shop MY INVOICE. That is for what I'm charging the skate shop and then they can mark it up. Like I'd actually walk in there and give them an invoice on a 20 ft stick of tube that's costing around $2.50 per foot. That's no labor, no weld process charge...nothing..... Same deal with car parts. If I was contracted to hunt down a part and I actually went out and found it, I would not hand it over at cost giving out the invoice I got as I purchased it. I would write out MY INVOICE for MY CHARGE. sheesh .... Carl Hagan
In my humble opinion, getting an engine rebuilt, unless it is something obscure, should be reasonably easy when it comes to giving an estimate on parts and labor, not taking into account major problems that were unexpected. However when it comes to other things anytime the word "custom" is used such as painting, body work, and upholstery it is very hard to give an exact quote, When it comes to custom upholstery I always ask what type of money they want to spend, and then I basically tell them from there what we can do. Custom stuff = time and materials.
Record keeping for a build is a little different, apples and oranges. Build a model a frame from scratch...I don't want an invoice for the stock the builder buys. I get that, but resale parts that the buyer is trying to keep record of for the benefit of a later purchaser. Or even for the owner to know what to purchase in the event of a non-warranteed (spelling) malfunction. I for one don't understand why this is hard for some shops to get! If you are a shop that gives a detailed statement of parts purchased and subsequently installed, that will do. In the absence of that, I want to see the invoices!!!
Hey BIGOLDS. Next time you go to a resturant ask for a invoice for what you just eaten instead of a reciept.
See you weren't paying attention, that's an apples and oranges comparo. Hey it's just business and it's just a debate!!! Lighten up and don't get personal!!!! Have a nice day and try out the fruit!!!!
Naw, please tell us the shop so we can call em and tell them to cut the ties with your whiny ass. I do not need to go into the stuff that shop owners have already posted. If you can't build it, deal with the cost! Serious, you sound like a sterotypical checkbook rodder with a Robert Conrad Chip on your shoulder. I doubt the HAMB is a place you really fit into. You might look for another message board?!
Good articles on HAMB like the one about Athens built roadster 1939 get 2-3 pages..... This one gets 5.......I give up. Gonna Kill my computor now BYE
this is one of those Apples & Oranges debates. Building old cars can not be compared to any other business. 90% of customers don't have the build knowledge. or the would do it their selves. Most shop owners have absolutely no way of knowing what they will find as the disassemble parts. not uncommon to spend several hours on a single rusty bolt or screw. I do work for several big name shops and have been told time and again. when cars are brought in for a quick (month or two) repairs that owners will decide "while your at it, we might as well do this too!" these thing are welcome (thats why we're in business) but also take extra time and conflict with schedules of other jobs in the shop. also the extra cost mount quickly and some owners are slow paying monthly bills. One shop owner told me that he has never had a customer tell him in the front that he wanted a $100,000 build. but many go well over that. $200,000+ on one old Chevy. I give written estimates on new materials only. stuff I have to search out and acquire get marked up 20-30% plus shipping. I always give the customer the choice of finding their own. I NEVER give even a ballpark estimate on labor. in 45 years in business Every single ballpark has been low and the customer demands thats "What you said and thats all I'll pay" There are two sides to every fence. and difference depends or which side you're standing. and both sides are right most of the time. Go figure huh!!!
Tman, A lot of HAMB'rs have already extended a hand trying to help a fellow out, but thanks anyway. I've been up in your area of the country - some long stretches of highway. Anyway, I've always made it a point to stop along side somebody else on the road to see if there was something they needed that I might have - if not, at least offer 'em a ride to the nearest phone, or gas station. It seems more members on this board are like that too.
I went to bed last night after Tman insulted you bigeasy. I was just amazed by his crass and ignorant reply to your question!!! Once again some of the homebuilt elitests have to make guys like you (and me) wrong because we either lack the time or the ability to build what we want or like. I would bet that a large portion of the guys hangin' on this site are guys that farm stuff out to others. I know that's true because there are so many "experts" that have posted to this thread that claim to be shop owners. Yeah, that's right they are takin' money from those of us that are willing to give it to them!!! I for one am not a check book rodder as he demeans, But what difference does that make. I hang here because I happen to like and drive traditionally styled cars!!! I don't recall seeing anywhere that only pompous homebuilt snobs are the only ones that can participate here!!!!
The build is here in Houston? I could pick it up (but won't) and none of the shops I know would either. I could ask around, but really, wanting original invoice copies and fixed price scheduling is gonna be tough. And unlike a lot of areas in the country, we're not unemployed and begging for work here. Every shop I know of (no, I don't know them all) has more than one project to devote time to.
Chirst are you guys listening!!!! The guy wants targets and an estimate!!!! Not fixed price and scheduling!!! Why are some of you guys so unwilling to be responsible for your word???? If you are a pro, at the very least you should be able to give a reasonable estimate!!!!!!! If you are a pro , give the guy a detailed invoice that shows exactly what you bought and installed!!!!! Then communicate with the customer about delays and set backs!!!!!
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