Is it wrong to expect a shop to provide you with an expected cost and completion date on a rebuild? The shop I've been working with gave me a guestimation at the start, but now a year into the rebuild they refuse to provide any further insight as to how long, or how much more... A professional estimate with delays and backorders not withstanding shouldn't be such a hard thing to do, should it? I'm thinking of pulling out of this rebuild and going somewhere else...does anybody think it's wrong to do that?
A year? and they cant or will not give you a projected cost and finish...bullshit! time to pull out before they make a mess of it. go pay for whats been done..get documentation of what has been done..find a better shop and hold them to giving to real figures and times or keep moving until you find someone who can. problem i see here is , he thinks hes got you by the balls and you cant go anywhere else..show him that aint true, and who knows maybe he will stop sitting on his hands and put down the coffee mug and get some dam work done.
What exactly is being rebuilt? An engine? A tranny? The suspension? The whhole car????? It makes a difference.
This very problem has made me wary of rebuilds, paint jobs, upholstery work etc. Everywhere I've gone has had some issue that made it hard to get my shit back within a reasonable amount of time and not being too far over budget. Now I build unpainted cars with little upholstery and weak engines. I rarely cuss here but I want to know---What is the fucking problem with doing a good job, on time, and within budget? I always pay on time, always or at least have a plan, and yet I find it humiliating to have to wait for someone to get off their ass and do what they said they'd do. If I'm holding up my end of the deal and it happens time and again, there is no excuse. Once you screw me, I NEVER go back nor do I even advertise the shit-for-hire that did it to me. Too many "professionals" suck the very life out of what we do. Thus, I find a way to do it myself.
If it as simple as an engine rebuild and it's been a year........I would get a lawyer. Have the lawyer go to the shop with you and present a lean letter. Just a a shop can put a lean on you, you can do the same to a shop. I would demand my money back.
Restoration jobs are often very open ended and unexpected things come up in the process. They should be keeping track of the hours spent to date and give you a detailed estimate on how much remains on the task. I have never given a car to a shop for any work of this magnitude for the reasons you are going through. If I can unbolt it and take it in, I do that. Shops change hands, fold up all of a sudden, parts disappear, anything can happen if the project is out of your sight and control. Give it one more shot to see what it takes to get your car out of there. If you have to and the car is worth some bucks, show up with a lawyer and see what they think of that. Bob
the bigest problem is most dont know or understand what it takes to build a car the bottom line is it aint cheep !
How can anyone run a business like that. If they have no idea what the job will take, they might not know what they're doing.
Bossss396 makes a good point. Any shop I have dealt with in the past have been able to give you some kind of idea. And while there may be things that happen to cause delays, or cause the cost to go up, they should be able to let you know. A friend just finished a '34 for a guy that took it to one shop that closed, took almost a year of legal stuff to get it back, then he took it to another shop and the owner died shortly after, and finally took it to my friend (after a long talk with him about time/cost expectations). I think the total (with the exception of interior) took about 8 months. But this was an all original stock '34. The best recomendation I can give you is to talk to some other HAMBer's in your area and get some references on shops close to you. Word of mouth is the best way to find out the truth about a shop. If us HAMBers can't help each other out, who else can? Post a thread asking for good shops in your area. That should help, I would definnately go get your car back while you can.
It may or may not be wrong to pull it. Most shops, including mine, will only give guestimations, at best, and work on a pay as you go basis. I provide bi-weekly progress reports concerning progress and money. Are they making progress weekly? monthly? Are you being given updates? If they are not making steady progress and you can't get updates on a regular basis, then your restoration is probably just filler work and you should find a shop that will work it as you want it worked. All this is dependant upon the money. Have you paid up front? Ideally, IMO, you pay some up front and when that money has been worked through, you pay more. A shop can't really afford to float you a loan for a year or two.
Expense is not the issue in my experience. I have story after story of plenty of money, but stuck with a well reputed lazyass that made a good interview. This problem is rampant.
when the word.."rebuild" is used ..dont most car guys think..ENGINE? if he had said more about the car, and body work, and things of that nature, than i would suspect a complete car. this to me sounds like an engine re-build that has gone way beyond the schedule restoring, or customizing or hot rodding sends me the message that he would be talking about a car
Untill we have more info from the original poster as to what's being "rebuilt", none of us can really provide any usefull input. If it's an engine, a SBC should not take more than a week. On the other hand, something like a V-12 lincoln probably could take over a year to locate parts and do it right. If it's a whole car, then I would think it would take about a year for things to get totally fucked up and the shop to realize they are in over their head, so in that case, I would say it's right on schedule.
A-V-O-I-D. If they cannot give you an estimated finish date, weekly time sheets and billing, then you are likely to be messed around. Get written estimates - always get paperwork. Don't do this and you only have yourself to blame. A true professional should have no problem with this. Give the current place an ultimatum: 'Give me a written completion date and final cost estimate or it's outta here.' An attorney's letter as follow up serves to reinforce the point.
This is a whole truck...work is progressing, but slower than I'd like. What has been done to date: Body was media blasted and primed. All tin media blasted and primed. there were few rust issues - some of the sheet metal near the front fender, and that has been repaired. The body is straight - rust issue on the back body's barn door hinges. Barn doors are fine, small dents here and there. Driver and passenger doors fine, window mechanisms are good to go. Running boards repaired. Front grill repaired and chromed. Front window frame may need minor work. Glass is good. New Chevy SB 350, purchased and test fitted to motor mounts. 700R Trans and Motor mounts were tacked on for test fit. Frame has been boxed. Frame cross member has been moved back to make room for 700R transmission. Fire wall was replaced and moved back 1-2 inches. Heidts, IFS and IRS have been mounted. Brake lines have not been installed. Frame has not been sandblasted yet until all mounting tabs are permanently welded on. No radiator yet, no airconditioning yet. Correct year period 12 volt gauges been purchased...set for mechanical tachometer. Two bomber seats (not correct for the year - but I like 'em and they are in excellent condition) have been purchased, but need to be reupolstered. Wood bed torn out, no new bed purchased yet. No wiring harness yet. No wheels or tires yet, shop is using temporary ones. I pay my invoices as I recieve them and I scrutinize them. Labor charges seem reasonable or perhaps they are not (I'm no judge). They billed me twice for the engine on two different invoices. Their confusion was explained as "confusion" and invoice corrected. The problem they say is they have 10 other projects waiting as well, and a small working staff to get it done....but mine is a "Priority"...like everyone else's project isn't. When I ask them for the original invoices on purchased items they refuse. I understand their need to make a profit, and told them to black out their costs - I don't need to see what they paid. I just like to keep a record of everything bought - from the shop where it was purchased. I want the original records on the engine, tranny, and Heidts IFS/IRS. They refuse. I keep asking for a projected cost and completion date - their best professional estimate will do. They refuse. Here are the questions I have. Am I impatient? Am I unreasonale in my requests for a estimated completion date/and costs? Should I stick it out or discuss with them the aspects of closing the project and moving it to somebody else that complete it ... sooner? Right now, I feel like pulling the project and moving it to somebody else. Thanks for any input you might feel inclined to provide.
hell if they keep "refusing"..than i would refuse to have my truck built by them..I dont think your requests are out of line. probably should have set things up so both understood what you would be requesting as back up and proof of billing, before you brought them your work. rebuild?? ...I'd find a different name for this..like Building Your truck..or Building a Hot rod out of your truck. rebuilds are for engines and trans..and maybe rear ends..but a complete project I dont think so..just my opinion
how often do you check in to see how things are going if it were reasonable I would call or stop in every day. the squeaky wheel gets the grease. as far as wanting to see what was purchased and where it was purchased I would let them know you wont pay for anything ordered unless you get approval beforehand, thats not tough unless you are a tough person to get ahold of. If they still refuse then I would thank them for the work they have done pay your bill in full and move on to someone else who will work with you. I would suggest you get this agreed upon in writing no matter wether you stay with this shop or move on to another one.
I had a race car engine in a shop, I went in on a Friday to drop off some parts, came back the next day to check on something they were checking for me and found out that the owner had died during the night! Luckily they were doing "business as usual" and finished up the job and stayed in business. I was freaked out for a few seconds until they assured me they were staying in business. These guys were the ultimate pros, everyone should do business like that, but reality sucks sometimes. Bob
To me it sounds like your frusterated. Talk to them before you say "legal action". You cant give a solid estimate on 75% of work as things always change, like customer adds in build. A year deosnt sound to bad. Could you afford to pay right now if he called and said it was finished and ready to go?
First, I think you should probably move it because you are dissatisfied with progress. Perhaps it should go to a shop that has fewer in house work. It appears that they are making progress and for a complete vehicle, I can't say that they are taking too long. I would not provide you with original receipts either. Their mark-up is their business and they have to warrant the product they sell you. You should be getting an itemized invoice from them. If not, request that they itemize parts on the invoice you pay from. I think, at this point, that you are being unreasonable to expect a completion date and projected final cost. You have said the labor charges are reasonable. They have been providing you with regular invoices and regular progress. I personally find that they are handling their business professionally and that you are being impatient. Again, I would NOT ever, never provide an estimated completion cost or date with a restoration or rebuild of an old vehicle. The reason for this is that if they provide it, you will expect them to stick to it. I hear about and see daily problems between customers and business owners concerning these unmet expectations. And, I work in a business where I give fixed priced bids on work on a daily basis...but not on restoration work.
I've been there!!! Don't dick around with the guy!!! Write a demand letter, spell out your REQUIREMENTS, how long he has to comply and the date that you will pull your shit outta there!!! Give him till that date, if he does not comply with your REQUIREMENTS completely. Get your local law enforcement and go get your shit ON THE DAY THAT YOU SAID YOU"D GET IT. Then tell everyone that you know what this shop did. They can't bitch or sue you for slander or liable because it's all true!!! It never ceases to amaze me that there are still idiots out there that don't realize that a bunch of shops exist that can do what they do!!!!!
I would take your check, thank you and ask you to take your truck to someone who would do things your way. I would also bill you for an hour every day that you dropped by and wanted to talk about your build. Squeaky wheel gets greased...and grease costs money. The OP is concerned about the time it's taking. It's only adding more time for him to approve every purchase ahead of time. It would drive the build even longer due to waiting on him.
thw whole truck thats probably right. unless its at a hot rod only shop, where all they do is retorations and shit like that, but if you just dropped it off at regular body shop it could be there alot longer than a year. when i used to run my body shop ( and this is how most if not all of the shops are) the project cars and restorations would only be worked on if we were very slow and didnt have anything going on, the customer knew this going in so we didnt get many full blow projects just paint jobs ect. ect. if you took it to a regular body shop i hate to tell you its your own fault because your car will never be the priorty, the wrecked cars always come first because thats were the real moneys coming from.
Costs should be fairly easy for the shop to estimate, based on similar project costs (and known material costs), even if the actual timeframe is cloudy. But since every used, old car is different (and often times very interesting and unforseen things can come to light after you tear into an old car that couldn't be known beforehand) one shoudl only expect a rough estimate. Unlike some TV shows that put a 7 day deadline on a car then put as many people and dollars behind finishing it in that timeframe (to a standard that often only looks good on TV) as possible, real projects can end up with unforseen delays from an expected timeframe (those framerails look good at first inspection, but funny, they are warped an inch and a half and need major work to be correct again, or, it took 3 passes of sandblasting and some chemical work to rid this frame of rust, vs just the two and no chemicals that the last 5 jobs took, or the blocksanding around all the fiddly bits on the pickup bed took a few days longer than originally thought to make it look acceptable, or the paint was flowing nice on most of the body, but the odd way that a certain set of panels on this vehicle were shaped compared to others casued a flaw that needs to be redone, but we have to wait until this paint cures more before we can sand and redo it, etc). To do a large job right takes a while, and often takes longer than expected even for an experienced professional. That being said, a good shop will communicate, if not automatically with updates due to simply being busy, at least gladly when asked by the customer. And many of the things I just listed would not be charged more for, even if it took more time than expected. As a former shop owner, I don't think you're being unreasonable in asking for a best professional estimate, or asking for blanked out invoices. They should have given you a basic timeframe to start with, with detailed reasoning on expected delays as they were uncovered. Even if those delays were caused simply by working on a part of another project that took longer than expected, delaying when they could get back to yours. I know I was always up front about that with customers, and they got copies of all invoices. As for pulling out now, that's a harder one. No matter what hapens, it'll probably be a logistical nightmare to get a torn apart project from one shop to another, and have the second shop work around work that the first shop did already. But if this shop is just jerking you around, like it sounds like they might be if they refuse to even give a close guess estimate (though I have to take that with a grain of salt, after dealing with certain customers. Not saying you are one, but I don't know either side in this story. I remember being in the middle of a project for a customer when I ended up being a passenger in someone else's car that sort of exploded, burning me pretty badly and putting me in a wheelchair for a number of months until my legs healed. The customer started demanding the project get done and accused me of faking an injury simply to get out of working on his car... anyhow back to the post...), I'd say at least start talking to other shops and see what kinds of estimates you can get, so you can get an idea of whether it would be wise to pull it and move on, or try to work out something with the current shop.
as far as getting a lawer and forcefully taking your project back, i would try and work it out with them as much as it sucks. because if you cant do the work yourself getting in a pissing match with one shop only makes all the other shops not want to deal with you. remember the pyscho girlfriend that told you she would cut your dick off if you cheated on here? well after that none of your buddy's fucked around with that chick either did they? LOL
WHY NOT...if you are a pro than you should be able to look at a job, know your own capabilities and then give the customer an estimated completion date. As far as parts purchased, I want proof that you are putting what I asked for on my ride, no I ain't takin' your word for it. Show me..photocopies are ok.... the customer understands reasonable mark up. Showing your invoices keeps you honest and shows the customer your integrity. Shop's want to be paid on time so I as a customer don't want to be dragged out until the shop gets around to it!!! If the shop takes on more work than it can handle in a reasonable manner of time, that's not the customers fault. Shop's need to be accountable......... Now I know, I'll take some shit for this, But I only offer it as an example. The shops featured on TV take jobs and give a completion date and in 95% of cases deliver. Yeah, they have a large staff and can turn stuff around in a hurry. As stated above, any pro should be able to determine the scope and depth of the job and offer a reasonable target date based on their own capabilities!!!
yea keep watching t.v. were all the deadlines are met. " well the show was still only an hour long so theres no way they did any extra work becuase the floor braces were all rusted out." thats another good question did you see the body after it was blasted? your solid project may have been cheesecloth
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