Hot Rod Institute 33 Chevy PU Chain Steer

HO-LEE- SHIT!!!! Dude, that is AWESOME!!!!!! Very similar to the concept I had in mind, except I was looking at using valve covers that will be sectioned and widened to fit (which I think will look super bitchin if I find some finned ones I dont mind chopping up - but I dont know how well I can work in plexiglass with them)........ but this definitely gets me thinking of other ways........ I probably will not go rectangular, and would put some curves on it, but its super close to what I was thinking.....

I really appreciate you taking the time to map that out in 3-d...... how long did that take you and what program did you use? I could see a lot of benefits in playing around with that..........

 

I rarely side with engineers...worked with a bunch of them in the nuclear field and we just never saw things quite the same way....and I still don't! Looks like a quality setup to me! Seems to me that chain will never jump as it is a pretty short piece...by the time you get the gears and shafts to wear to the point of actually having any issues you will probably be ready for a complete rebuild of the truck anyway...look at how many steering boxes have lasted 60+ years and are still useable...I agree that supporting the shafts on the outside will add a level of stability just in case, but it could be as simple as a support between just the three shafts....maybe cut some artsy looking piece.

 

I used Inventor Pro 2009. It's been messing up on me recently, so I'm probably going to reinstall it. You should see some of the other stuff I've done, it actually looks well modeled! I did that in about 5 minutes after it crashed. If you sketch what you want on paper or in Paint or something I can mess with it and make it look a little more like what you want.

 

Sounds to me like you are agreeing with the engineers on this one

HRV - maybe you could find a finned aluminum tranny pan or something that wouldn't have to be modified as much as a valve cover...

 

While I can't speak to the efficacy of this idea from personal experience, I can say that my friend Bob Austin has had a chain drive setup on his deuce 3-wdw. for years and has nothing but success. His older brother Carl (RIP my dear friend) had one on his '34 sedan that works as sweet as molasses. These two guys are old school and built their first hot rod, a T-bucket, starting in the early fifties. Their car has been discussed on this site several times. They got some of their ides from the years they spent building and racing super modifieds at Oswego! All I can say is, if it was, and is, good enough for them it's definitely good enough for me!

 

That mail carrier example is a great one, I'd say add the guards that make chain-throwing impossible and run it proudly.

Back to the bike stuff- if you run a clear cover, some higher end bicycles use a non-petroleum "dry" chain lube, it seems a lot like silicone spray that evaporates to leave a dry film. I've used the stuff for years with no noticeable chain wear, and probably put thousands of miles of steering stress on that bike's chain every time out. Point being, it wouldn't attract grime if you put the mechanism on display.

The idler is fixed, correct? So any chain stretch should translate into steering looseness, thus giving ample warning if there were problems. That makes sense as I type it, maybe it won't in an hour.

Or you could just use a clear cover, and fill it half full of oil. Everyone would wonder why you have that lucas oil display hanging on the firewall
Good luck

 

Hi guys, I am the guy that designed and manufactures Steer Clear, and have been a member for a couple of years. I think that this is my first post. HRVO3 your unit looks to be a very good start, there a few things that I would like to see incorporated into it for added safety. the shafts should be welded to the sprockets due to the constant changing of direction set screws and keys have a tendency to loosen over time. I also totally enclose it with bearings supporting booth ends of the shafts to eliminate the chance of flexing. As for the cover, it would be a good idea to design it so that there is nothing on the inside that can come off. What I mean by this is that if any nuts bolts or other hardware used for construction or mounting were to come off it still could not get to the chain. even a set screw could jam the system! I hope this helps I have been building and testing units for over 6 years now so I do know a bit about what I am talking about. We love it when a gearhead wants to build a custom steering box, hell that's how it all started for us. Just make it safe. I am happy to help with this if I can. Dave

 

I understand what you are getting at, but those sprockets are not going to be welded onto the shaft. If I did, the only way to get the system apart would be with a sawzall. I specifically designed this system to work with a design feature I have planned since I started building my truck. The cab is one gigantic quick disconnect. Electrical, brake lines, body mounting, and the steering system are all made so I could easily pull the cab off in less than 20 minutes. Plug and play.

The reason for this is that I am a lazy bastard, and do not care too much for crawling around on my back working on anything. So with a chain pulley and about 15 minutes, I can have the cab off to do any work on the chassis, tranny, lines, etc......

It would make sense to weld the sprockets on if I had double D u-joints, but a student budget, and the fact that those joints are nearly twice as much or more as weldons, and the fact that I would much rather count on the welded u joint helping to hold things in place as opposed to a ujoint that could slip off if anything hairy happened - I would much rather rely on my shaft that has been specifically machined, and will be setup so the nut holding that sprocket on can not come off unless I tell it to.

In terms of keyed sprockets loosening and such - it would still be MUCH cheaper to get 2 more keys and sprockets a few years down the road than it would to go to double D U joints.

No offense to you or your system - it was the initial inspiration for the build, but I do not want mine to resemble yours in any way except in concept. I am wanting a much more industrial, gritty look to it.

A few othe people have recommended double bearing on each side due to flex. I specifically did not do this for a few reasons. 1) space - this thing sticks out less than 2 inches now. I would not want that doubled - some wierd shit sticking out of the firewall 4 inches would just not look to be in place. 2)it would cover up too much. I want this stuff to be seen, out in the open. Quite honestly, what I do not like about your system is that it is completely covered up. While that makes sense from a business perspective - you dont want competition stealing your shit, I can not stand that an average joe cant look it over and say "ohhhhh, THATS how it works!!!" I want this to be a focal point of mechanics in action. Where people can look at it and see how it all works - maybe give them a shove in the ass on getting creative. And lastly 3) It was a calculated risk. Considering the 3/4 shaft. The weld on U-joints. The machined bearing/sprocket shafts. Those bearings sandwiched between 3/16 and 1/8 thick steel plates along with being sandwiched between the aforementioned u-joints and nuts. I do not think that I will have a lot of flex. There is nowhere for things to move. And if I find that I do have flex, I can still take the system apart and add to it.

 

Wizardfab's contribution to this thread is ABSOLUTELY what makes the HAMB great. And HRV03 needs a lesson on taking friendly advice from somebody who's spent a whole lot more time thinking and building the same device.

Maybe it's just me, but I believe there's always more than one answer to a question. And there's nothing more valuable to help find my own answer, than to talk it thru with an expert and discover the whys behind their answer. They'll only push your answer to a higher level.

HRV03, IMO you have a couple of design priorites confused. Designing & building a high safety, asthetic, cheap item is no simple task. Your steering box is going to work great, but don't like seeing budget or asthetics be higher priority than safety on an item like this. It sets a bad precedent for future designs, especially because it's working so good this time.

Good luck, it's turning out pretty awesome

 

Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. I greatly appreciate his input. The input from others in his company in the other posts I studied were a great help. I think you are assuming that I expect this to work perfectly. I have made a point to mention that the vehicle is incomplete, and I intend to test this steering system before just hopping on the highway and rolling on through at 80 mph.

While I can appreciate what you are saying about aesthetics, I have also posted everything that I have read up on, studied, etc to make sure that others have the information I used when designing this system. I simply said that AT THIS TIME - I am not going to be using his suggestion. I also stated that I am making sure it will work and am PREPARED to change the design after I have tested its use.

I was merely pointing out that his is a different look than I was going. I am pretty sure the point of why we are here are to make our vehicles vroom vroom and look the way WE want, not how the last guy did it. There absolutely is more than one answer, and I am going to find mine.

I did not in anyway discount his opinion or what he said. It is invaluable and definitely being kept in mind when the system starts to see some use. Do not mistake saying "No, I am not going to do it your way" as a discourtesy or lack of acceptance of information. And if Wizardfab takes it as such, please let me know, and I will be sure to reword myself. Especially since I explained why I was doing what I was doing, and he has yet to respond back regarding what he thinks with those considerations in place. I explained myself to incite more intelligent conversation over the design in hopes to better it.

 

OK there HRV. You got a great idea, and the KISS principle in full motion.

You can run the chain dry, only the lube that's factory from assembly will make it outlast your lifetime if it's enclosed.

Think about this, the steering force will want to move the upper shaft down and the lower shaft up. This will put a little strain on the bearings and mounts. All you need to prevent this stress is a link, maybe 1/8 in plate, slip fit on the two shafts outboard of the sprockets. This can float, not be attached to either shaft. A bolt in the center to the main plate with a spacer the height of the sprocket. A little grease on the shafts.

Frank

BTW: I would drive your deal and be more comfortabe with it than with a cheesy steering rack.

 

That is the way back in 60 and 70 that the guys used to speed up the steering in the dirt cars. Never had any problems with it and the gears and chains used never broke. Its and easy way to locate the wheel in the middle of the car and not worry about a bunch of u joints binding up. good luck.

 

IMO the very least you should do is what Gas pumper suggests with the strap. He is right on with the forces making the shafts pull towards each other, and if you add in stuff like frame flex, body shifting, or even a pothole or curb, you could loose a chain. Now I agree that might be a very limited possibility, but it is a possibility.

 

It cracks me up that the manufacturer of an existing product like you have created chimes in with constructive criticism and you essentially ignore every last bit of advice.
The deflection that you will see with these gears mounted in single shear cannot be ignored. When your chain pops off and you loose all steering shortly before crossing the center divider and you kill some innocent family, send us a picture......

 

What you got going looks great....cant see where you would have any problems with this set up.

Some people (like me) have actually read your thread from the START, and knows the research and thinking that you've put into your system, what your plans are, etc, etc. Keep it up

On a side note.....I've ridden dirt bikes in the desert and on a track. Been to the desert or track twice a month for a whole season and have never seen anyone break a chain (on a quad or dirt bike) and maybe have seen one come off (it was actually out of adjustment) Those chains take some crazy abuse in the desert and some aggressive loading from popping the clutch and going through 1-2 foot deep whoops regularly, not to mention rocks and dirt being thrown at them constantly.
Plus, how many thousand RPM's are they turning compared the steering system that is turning what, just a few RPM max.

As far as lube is concerned, we run a silicone spray lube on the chains. Run a good chain that has o-ring seals to help keep the lube in the chain and lubrication wont be an issue, especially with the low turning speed, being subjected to alot less dirt and being covered.

 

Holy shit..... Dude, did you even read my replies? It cracks ME up when people make assumptions without fully reading or trying to understand the situation. DID I SAY that I was hauling off onto the highway without checking this system out and make changes accordingly? No. I know how I learn. Some things, I need to see happen. When I test this system out, I need to visually see and understand what is happening. That is the point of testing it out.

When someone sets in a new engine in a drag car, do they just say, "fuck it, this is how we always do it" or do they run it through the same monotonous ass tests over and over to see where new stresses may occur? I want to see this shit for myself, and I find it real fuck off offensive that you are just going to run your mouth and assume that I am ignoring any and all advice and am just telling everyone to fuck off.

Tell you what, why don't you send ME a picture when you pop off at the wrong time and place to the wrong person. It is bound to happen. Next time, do me a favor and ask me to clarify myself before making an assumption.

The old adage applies here, to ASSUME makes and ass out of u and me..... right now, its just u........

 

Call and Talk to Tony Woodward at Woodward steering http://www.woodwardsteering.com/

Tony has designed and manufactured many different types of steering columns, racks, etc for many years...

I spoke with him several times for advice during the completion of my senior project for my engineering degree.....

Tell him what you are doing, show him the pictures. If he likes what you've done and says it will be a SAFE steering system I'll send you $100.00

good luck DAVE

 

Despite the "my dick is bigger than your dick, and here is my money down to prove it" posting above, we have at least gotten a link to a good resource that everybody can use.

Despite your best efforts, you have actually fulfilled the purpose of this forum, and given some useful information for the good of the community.

Woodward's capability to write technically, yet effectively while still maintaining an understandability for even the most "Barney" of people should be applauded. His tech articles are something that I have saved and will read as a reminder before building other steering components. Woodward's figures, pictures and examples simplify things to a level that almost anyone can understand and comprehend.

CaddyDave - Your sense of logic baffles me. I can see an intent to try and help, but your means of doing so by ridiculing, assuming and inciting argument just lower peoples expectations in your ability to provide useful and insightful information for the good of everyone on the forum. Especially when you ignore new information as it comes. I also appreciate your generosity of offering up your own money. Perhaps if you took psychology classes along with engineering, you would understand the undertones that such an offer make.

I am not going to argue with you any longer, as I have provided more than enough information as to what I have done, where I found information, what that information was (which is obvious you did not read into much, if any of it), how I plan to go about learning from this myself and the best methods that I learn from, not to mention the availability of experience levels and resources available to me - which can easily be found if you read my very first post on this tech. All you have offered to me in terms of bettering my system or myself is - you ignore advice from someone who has done it before (which you obviously did not fully read what I said or are incapable of grasping the point) - and - if you use my source to approve your design, I will give you money (discrediting the sources of information that I have at my disposal). That does not follow the intent of this thread or this forum.

Wizardfab - I also liked gas pumper's concept, and am looking into a design of such. I will still go through with testing the setup as is first, so I can see what the forces are doing firsthand, which will better help me comprehend how to resolve it, if it becomes an issue.

Gas pumper- thank you for the idea. I will let you know if it will be required and how I go about fabbing it up.

 

HRV03...clear something up for me will ya.

Did you come here for Adoration, help, friendship, learning, a kick in the ass or a pat on the back?
The reason I ask is...around here they ALL come in the one BIG greasy traditional box.
You need to be able to absorb them ALL and profit from them.

You seem to be fine with the first and the last one...the rest you need to work on...

What your doing is cool...but not as cool as you seem to think.
You come on WAY too strong.

Don't take that as a kick in the ass...think of it more as learning.

 

I actually kick myself in the ass a lot more than you may think. I know at least 10 things I would do differently when I go to build another one. I do not necessarily think this is super cool. I like the concept, and it is something that I want to work on more, in my own way. I am merely pointing out that the learning part is a process. And I told everyone where they could go to see what I learned from. Those posting the same things from previous posts, are not ADDING anything.

I know this is not for everyone. I know that some experts will agree, and other experts will think I am a full blown wackaloon. I have no problem with - this is not for me, I would not put anything like that in mine, etc....

But redundancy of information makes clutter. And my intent for posting this thing in the first place was to see if anyone had anything NEW to add. I can easily use the search function and find the exact same responses that are in 60% of this thread. People like Wizardfab, and Gas Pumper, gnichols, old dirt tracker about how he changed his ratios, pinstripe bob on ideas for a cover, CadDaddy42 especially - have all provided insight on how to make it better. And I have taken a lot of it to heart. Just because I do not do exactly as they siggest does not make it any less informative for me or others viewing.

But spilling useless bile, especially of which I could read on any of the previous threads on chain steers does not do anyone any good. I could care less about adoration or attaboys. I am in this for me. To contiue to develop myself. And if people can not help me do so in a constructive manner, or without informing themselves of all the resources I put forth, then their opinions matter little to me. A kick in the ass is just the ticket a lot of the times. But the one doing the kicking needs to be more informed and educated, and be familiar with all of the resources I cite (and I have had several ass kicks while I was building this system), before kneejerking their foot..... as sometime it may miss my ass, and go straight to their mouth.

I am hoping this explains my perspective..... as most of the time, these issues are derivative of people misunderstanding anothers perspective.

 

You speak so highly of Tony Woodward and his ability to write technical information in a way that can be easily understood.....but have you actually read it?

Check out page 100 of his catalog http://www.woodwardsteering.com/Cat05/Cat05 PDF 100-105.pdf regarding welding u-joints to shafts, keying steering components together, etc...

You figured out a solution that will solve all your problems, all I'm asking is that you call Tony and discuss your set-up. A few simple changes will make this a bullet-proof system..

DAVE

 

HRV, I am glad to hear that you are into seeing the results of the stresses for your self by testing, that is the best way to learn. If I follow your design right if you start at the steering wheel you have a solid shaft that runs through a bearing mounted to the dash to a u joint that is welded to the shaft, and is also welded to the input shaft of your chain drive. This should provide you with the perfect test to show what I am talking about. If you push down hard on the steering wheel the shaft should act as a lever, and the bearing should act as a fulcrum. If you watch very closely you should see where the deflection is. I would have someone else do it while i held on to the chain, I think that you will be able to feel some slacking occure, I could be wrong and the deflection may just be bending of the long shaft. This could be resolved by adding another support bearing closer to the u joint. Watch every thing the firewall could move, the mounting plate could bend, or as I suspect a little of everything, but at least a strap would be a way of insuring that any external forces are directed away from the chain. Testing the output side might be more difficult, that is the bad part about testing. Another deflection test would be to have someone turn the wheel and put a drill bit in the sprocket causing a jam, but be very gentle, it should not take much force to do some damage. Good luck, I bet you get a lot more suggestions for testing Dave

 

HRV, I totally agree with wizardfabs last post (#82). There will be some flex, but with that being said, you could hit that chain and gears with a ten pound maul and it would probably still work. The small hardware you are using to hold the bearings and brackets in place needs to be secured with safety wire or some other means so that it will never be allowed to come loose. Good work.

 

HRV, a little more on chain drives. It looks like you are using #40 chain, or maybe #41. (1/2 inch pitch with either 5/16 or 1/4 pin width)

Don't run the chain so tight that it binds, it needs a slight bit of slop, not much but don't have tension on the chain.
You can break the chain if it gets tight.

I ran 40 chain for years in an awful application. sprocket on engine gear box and another on the axle, on a suspended 1/4 midget on dirt. Had to run the chains real loose cause axle movement was up and down and also twisting. Real loose. This was at about 1000 rpm and both sprockets close to the same size, 26 to 28 teeth. About 7.5 hp and 55 ft/lbs of torque on the chain. The only time the sprockets lined up was when the car was parked.

40 chain can take a LOT of misalignment, a lot more than your deal will ever see. The chain will never come off the sprockets. The tooth design of the gears are made to work with misalignments.

Chain technology goes back to the late 1800's, all the bugs are out. It's a proven system.

Frank

 

Seems to me that as close to an expert as you'll find has taken the time to help you out. If it was me I would think REAL HARD on ANYTHING he has said as his experience woudl be invaluable. You are NOT on equal footing - experience is often learned the hard way - embrace it - don't dismiss it.

 

Hrv, I have been thinking about this whole thread and how it has seemed to turn into what I think is a bunch of bull shit that has nothing to do with what you started it for in the first place. This is exactly why I have been reluctant to post on any of the forums, seems that a lot of people just want to kick some ass. I know that when you go looking for some advice if you ask an expert you will probably get an expert answer, but sometimes the more experts that you ask, the more confused you get. seldom will a bunch of people agree on anything. So that leaves you with the task of sorting through all the shit to get to the good stuff. But when it comes to a piece that has any thing in common with Steer Clear it has a direct affect on my product. Someone mentioned earlier that it was not approved by the NSRA and that is right the reason for this is that some 30 years ago the NSRA had a car built for a giveaway that had a poorly designed chain drive in it. that is when they made the rule. I have been in contact with then and even though they are very impressed with Steer Clear they won't change the rule for fear of a lot of inferior Home built units showing up. It is hard enough to get a lot of people to realize how bitchen A chain drive steering can be, but the more bad copies that start showing up the harder it will be. Don't get me wrong I am not passing judgment on your part yet being as how you are still in the prototype stage. So keep learning, testing, and improving. I am always happy to offer any "expert advice" or "bull shit" depending how you sort through it. Just make it safe!!! Dave

 

I'm not close to an expert, I would move the chain on the sprockets, like every 1000 miles of driving so it wears in a different location , also makes you inspect it. Somebody can tell you the breaking strength of the chain, but as stated in other posts,dirt is going to be the problem. Turing left, the tire will throw every thing at the chain and sprockets. Be safe before cool.

 

Ok, Here is my input... The set up I built was over 2 years ago and is still in the car. The car gets driven a lot.... So far everything is good...Here are my observations. I built mine in double shear. I think it is a good idea. If you have a way to make the steering joints removable so you could set it up in double shear, I would do it. I had the chain set tight in the beginning then loosened it up. Steering set ups generally speaking have a little bit of free play in them. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work.. The Steer Clear setup is chain drive....that is what speedway is selling. When I did this two years ago the guy who owns steer clear(which is what speedway sells) saw all the talk about me ripping him off and copyright infringement etc.here on the HAMB.. and told me to go for it... He is a great guy. I talked to him at SEMA for a while about his design. For mass market street rod guys he has a great product. For gear head do it yourselfers, there is no reason not to go for it with the proper input. Very little is done for the FIRST time anymore.... JAson.

 

That means "no awards" at NSRA events!

No offense, and I can't stress that part enough,...........

but who cares about a "street rod" award from the
"Nazi Street Rodders Assholyation"

Prime example;

Recognition is nice, but..............
If your in it for the awards, your in it for the wrong reason.

 

It's been a few years, I'm wondering how the testing came out?