i heard that you could wait 24 hrs to do the engine turning on the gold leaf after it is laid down. so does this mean that you dont have to wait and wait till the perfect time to lay the leaf down since you are not turning it right after
I don't understand the question. The way I have always done it was to mask the shape I wanted, spray a little bit of clear, wait some seconds (or a minute or two) until it became very tacky, then lay the gold leaf on the sticky paint. I would then pat it lightly to make it stick and make it lay down flat. I liked the looks of light wrinkling patted flat. Wait several minutes or a bit longer (an hour or two?), pull up the masking to reveal the gold leaf in the shape I wanted, touch up the egdes if needed (usually just dabbing it with my finger), then paint clear over it to protect it. Its very delicate. A couple more layers of clear, a little sanding to level the surface, then one more clear coat to bring out the shine. If you want to airbrush a border, or shadows&shapes to bring out 3-D shapes, you should do it over the first clear protective coat that covered the leaf, then bury everything, including special effects, under the clear topcoats. One favorite effect of mine was to paint over the first or second layer of clear with a bit of crackle paint (paint without the anti-shrink additive)(they used to call it Vreeble 30 years ago) that would shrink back with a lot of jagged edges that would reveal the gold underneath, thru the large cracks, then put more clear over that. I still don't understand the question, but I hope this helped a little.
im talking about engine turning it. and could i lay it down when its still pretty tacky since im not engine turning it right after
Depends on what you are using for Size. "Quick Size" or water based Size, no chance on the 24 hr trick. You would need a "Slow Size", often favored by old time Gold Masters for producing the most brilliant finish.
Boy I was way off. I was talking about actual 24 karat gold foil. You are talking about special paint. In the famous words of Rosanne Rosannadana (Gilda Radner Sat nite Live)- "Nevermind".
Your not that far off. He's wants to "engine turn" the gold leaf. It's a circlular pattern. does this ring a bell?
No, he is talking about gold size. Gold leaf and gold foil are two different things. Unkl Ian is right, it depends on the size. Slow or fast. Correct tackiness is all important.
Can you even engine turn gold leaf? Won't it just burn right through it? That stuff is super, super thin.
Ever see an old Fire Truck ? They were all done with real Gold Leaf. Not Imitation Leaf, or Gold Foil. Successfully "spinning" leaf is a matter of timing and pressure. Lots of patients and experience helps.
I guess I had better watch and listen, and I will pick up something new. The gold leaf I have used, and still have (leftovers) is just like a super-thin foil (I guess I shouldnt have used the word foil). It comes sandwiched loosely between layers of paper to protect it. If you blow on it, it will tear and come apart into shreds. Real gold, real thin, real delicate. I know what "engine turning" looks like, and I know the patterns left behind from a milling cutter on a flat plate. I am still not getting the picture. I guess I'll have to see pics or keep reading the newer posts as they come along. It looks like I will learn something new if I keep watching. I don't "get it" yet, but maybe I'll catch on soon....
Check out this "How To". You engine turn gold leaf with cotton. http://www.bobbondart.com/how-topage1.html
I'm by no means an expert, but Unkl Ian knows of what he speaks. I'm sure the "foil" mentioned is gold leaf. It comes in various Karats (22, 23, 24), or in immitation leaf. It also comes in loose leaf, which can be real fun to apply as it likes to fly away, or in Patent gold, which is "adhered" to waxed paper to make it easier to apply. You apply a size, as mentioned, and then apply the gold. Clear can work, especially for small projects, but due to the drying time, can be difficult for large projects. The old school sign painter method was to use an oil based (typically enamel based) size. Size is different than paint in that it achieves a level of tackiness and then maintains it for a period of time allowing you to have time to apply the gold. It is best not to apply the gold while the size is still wet. It just won't give you the right look. 1-shots gold size is usually ready to leaf in 20-30 minutes, and stays tacky for another 15-20 minutes. There really is no reason not to wait that short peroid of time, but if time is of the essence, you can add a few drops of 1-shots hardener, or any urethane clear hardner to your size to accelerate the dry time, but it will also shorten your leafing window. The general rule of thumb for testing size to to apply the size to something else (like a beer can or something) and then rub the back of you knuckle across it (this way your not touching the project itself) and if it squeaks instead of being wet, its time to leaf. If you have no intention of turning it, then you can move on to clear (brush clear immediately, if you urethane clearing, wait til the next day to give the enamel time to dry and not react with the urethane). To engine turn, I usually wait about 45 minutes. Engine turning is just like the machine process everybody thinks of on firewalls and instrument inserts, but not done the same. Most wrap a piece of velvet over the end of a dowl rod with a piece of cotton in between for cushion and then, using light presure, turn it just a quater turn, move over about 7/8s of your circle pattern, and do it again. Like Unkl Ian said, common on fireengines, also common of 60's and 70's drag cars. Incidently, most sign guys agree that the gold is more brillant and lustruous when the slowest size is used. High end sign guys will use a size that takes 24hours to tack, and stays tacky at least another 12. This also was handy on big signs, cause they could start lettering on one end, finish lettering by the end of the day, come in the next morning, and it would be ready to leaf and would have all day to leaf. This is rarely needed these days, but if you ever get a chance to see one done like this, you'll see what they mean by the gold being more brilliant with slow size. I know this is long winded, but hopefully this clears up everybodys confusion.
Thats good advice, I have been gilding every day for years, its my job ha ha the leaf is going to look as good as the surface it is applied to. the quicker oils and sizes, especially the acrylic size, don't settle into a shiny self -levelled surface as well as the long sizes. so the longer sizes are more inconvinient but have a better finish. depends what your doing tho, if its a thin stripe then it wont really matter what you use. If the gold is applied to the size before the correct tack has been reached then you will get dull patches. I find that applying the oil size with a pad is more successful than using a brush. that acrylic size or "wundasize" is rubbish for good finishes, 24 hour oil is good for nice lustre finishes.
What steps need to be taken after gold or silver leaf is applied to insure the clear will have the proper adhesion to the leaf?Is there a maximum width for the leaf when applying clear over the top?
the oil size i have used is soluble with white spirit. We did a entire guitar once, the guy who was sealing it did a few experiments with different clears to see which one worked best. i think he went with a cellulose laquer in the end. i have also gilded some large areas on the interior of a hotels. the gold was laid, then as soon as we had brushed all of the flakes away carefully it was sealed. those were massive areas of gold.
Properly done, true gold leaf doesn't need clear. Hundreds of years of gold leaf was done before clear was invented. Clear actually will hide the true beauty of gold. They don't apply clear to real gold, as in jewelry. Having said that, there is a finished look when everything is under clear. Clear will not attack the gold, but can affect the size if it is not compatible with the clear. We need to stress the fact that the shine of the gold is dependant on that peak time of tackiness. If you have a lot of gold to lay, you need a longer time size (undercoat) in order to have the time to lay the gold before the size loses it's tackiness. Engine turning requires a delicate touch, just enough to add the lines that pickup the light.
Thats right about the clear not being applied traditionally. They say that gold lasts forever but sealing it reduces the lifespan to that of the sealant. but i suppose on a car it has to withstand a lot what with the weather and cleaning and whatever. yea aas hotrod 1940 says making sure the sealant is compatible witht the size is a must.
Hahaha sorry let me reword my last message!! So its better to turn the leaf after it is laid down instead of waiting till the next day since I'm using fast dry size? Is that better?
are you talking about that acrylic white size? i would not reccoment that stuff for the turning. or is it fast oil size youre using? once its laid you can turn it. I dont know about doing it the next day, ive not waited that long before.
If its white and waterbased like some glue a kid would use in a school art class then its that acrylic or "easy size" stuff. oil size is oily smeling and has a clear oily appearance. you probably have the oil if its one shot
The size your talking about " I think" is oil-based. It should be tacky in about 1 hour, the way I test is to touch it with the back of my knuckle and if is leaves an imprint it is still too wet, if it feels like the back of a piece of scotch tape it is ready. Once you lay the gold leaf down it pretty much seals the size in place, it really won't dry all that much more underneath the leaf, so the crucial time frame is prior to laying the gold down. Once the gold is down I wait about 30 minutes then I go back using a really light cloth or a cotton ball/ make up pad and lightly wisk away the left over loose leaf. Then you can go back and lightly do your swirls in the gold. It is called burnishing the gold leaf. Make sure you use the right thing to burnish with or you will ruin your gold. I use a piece of one way velvet that when you touch it it feels coarse one way and smooth the other. Then use a dowl with a cotton ball in between to wrap it around. This whole process takes practice and you will mess up the first few pieces you do so don't try it on a customers car the first time, or at least a customer thats bigger then you are! good Luck and give me a shout if I left something out! -Chris
Oh yah and just so you know if you decide to use the One Shot clear coat that is uv protected and comes with green lettering on the can... that is acrylic and works well but when you try to use reducer to get it out of your brush you'll think you did and then you'll come back in a few days and realize you've ruined $200 in brushes like I did. Just wash it out in warm water ,,, trust me!
Don't use the 1-Shot Acrylic Clear. It is intended for protecting ink jet prints. The solvents are very aggressive, and will frequently react with Alkyd Enamels. It also has a VERY poor solvent resistance.
Nice thanks for all the help guys ill post my practice pieces after I do them. I use this ball I found that's used for detailing and I wrapped it in a crown royal bag. Tried it once and it worked fairly decent need A LOT more practice though. And I use a clear from 5 star extreme it was $11 for a 16oz can and it worked well on the first practice panel I did and there was no reaction to it at all.
A few more points: 1. When the size (undercoat) is the correct tackiness, you almost feel that it is too dry. That is why , if possible you use slow oil size because the drying time is much slower and it allows enough time to lay the leaf. It allows a longer window of opportunity. If you have a lot of leaf to lay, it is going to be dry before you get to the end. The more correct the time of tackiness, the better the shine of the gold. If you lay the leaf when the size is too wet, the gold soaks into the size and kills the shine. 2. Burnishing is shining the gold gently and that sets it into the size. Engine turning is the process of spinning the series of circles into the gold. The gold is soft enough to take the design almost like sanding a paint job. Gently. 3. I know a lot of people say wash your brush. I never let an oil brush touch water. I had Sables for water colors and all quills, stripers, and outliners never had a drop of water touch them. The old saying is true, oil and water do not mix. All old sign guys are familiar with the term "snap", and the quickest way to lose snap is to let water touch an oil brush. "Snap" is what a well broken in and clean brush has, can't be described, but you will know it when you feel it.
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