without giving away the bombshell ......... Long story short my ''buddy'' has full documentation (original designs/drawings/plans/and pictures from start to finish) of a car that sold at auction once for almost 2 million bucks and then the last time it sold for a little under 500k. this depriciation in price was due to lack of history and back ground on the car.the current owner im sure would want to acquire the vehicles paper trail and history but how would somebody approach this situation? my friend is no hustler but he knows that there is money to be made in this venture. my "buddy" says thanks
You would start by posting a picture of the car to see if anyone remembers it. The way it sounds though the guy has "full documentation (original designs/drawings/plans/and pictures from start to finish)" what more do you want? If nobody remembers it, or it was a "trend" car (full of billit) tell your buddy to drive the wheels off of it and enjoy it.
^ What he said....Its a market of commodities and investments when your in that price range...If it is what you say it is....you could name your price...if he disnt want to buy....his loss...literally. thats why I'll never own anything like that (beside the $ issue)....seems to me that you really wouldn enjoy a car if you hadda worry about crap like that....I appreciate the history, but dont want the responsibility of the history....I'd rather make my own.
The documentation was available for it to sell for $2 million but it somehow got in someone elses hands and the history got so lost in that time that the car brought a 1/4 less? Seems to me that there is more to this story than written.
Dont sound like any kind of car that we would be interested in anyway or you'd have said what it was!!!!!!!!!
There are very few 2 million dollar cars in the world, and fewer of those rely strictly on documentation to prove that much of their value. A Duesenburg, for example, is always a Duesy even if you can't trace it to it's roots. One example of a car that did require the doc's to prove its value is the '68 Camaro Z28 convertible built for a GM exec (I can't remember who it was supposed to have been built for.) Without the documentation, there is no way to prove a Camaro is a true Z, especially when the whole world denies the car ever existed. The owner of this car attempted to auction it at the Kruse Auburn auction a few years ago, and perportedly left the documentation in a brown satchel with the car while it was on display. The satchel came up "missing" when it was time for the car to cross the block. A large reward was offered for it at the time. The car did not sell there, as no one would believe that it was truely the one and only first generation Z28 convertible ever built. I think the Camaro community still regards the car's claim to fame as disproven. Also, race cars are more valuable if you can prove their provenance is to have won a prestigious race, or been driven by a famous driver. I am unaware of any stories in this regard, however.
And anyone with 500k as you put it is no doubt smart enough to deal When I hear 'Get rich quick' stories like this the phrase 'Your a whore' pops into mind I have owned cars cars worth millions, still do, and as stated here items of that value level seldom rely on one stack of papers for their 'history' Specially if it was auctioned for $2,000,000 before If it we're my car and you guys tried a slick and greedy story on me I would tell you to: "Shove it up your ass. Put it on eBay and we'll see who bids'' And FYI I have done just that. The first place you should have gone was the owner not us.
I've got a stack of info on two INDY cars, had the stuff for close to 40 years now, still have the dream of owning one of them that sits in a collection out West.
im with bluto on this one , for that kind of dough the buyer should have got everything at purchase , you should have included "HUCKSTER" in your title..
Bluto has put it well. I deal in material like this but your deal sucks. One of the great pleasures I get in my business is reuniting cars and documentation and sure i make money out of it but it is always done in a open way. I hope the owner of the car tells you to crawl back in your hole. Don't forget there is only one buyer for this material.
Okay, enough with all the cloak and dagger bullshit. It annoys the ever-lovin' piss out of me when my kid does it, and it annoys the ever-lovin' piss out of me when someone writes it on a website. Tell us the story, so we're not all jumping to conclusions. Were the documents stolen from one of the buyers? What caused the car to drop in value? Were the docs with the car at any time during it's rapid rise in value? Or, did you find them in a file cabinet somewhere, were they given to you by a friend of a friend who was around when the car was built? How'd you come by them? If they're not stolen, I suggest you sell them for as much as you can get. I don't think you're under any obligation to get anything less than the most you can for these documents. I'm not bashing the rich, but there's no reason someone can pay $500K for a car and then expect some working guy to just turn over any documents associated with the car to be a good guy. Hell, I love the rich--I'm working toward that myself. But they didn't get that way by giving valuable things away, nor should you. I know the guy who took delivery of an original ZL1 Camaro, and raced it. The car was sold, and sold again, and maybe even again after that. It was a race car, after all. The current owner called him up and asked for the original paperwork. Well guess what? That's worth money, and a good bit at that. Was the original owner under some obligation to simply turn over the documents? What about the original block he still had for it? Or any other parts? Rather than paper, what if we were talking about a part with an original number on it? Say it was an original radiator for one of the Gran Sport Corvettes. It obviously BELONGS to that car, right? Should the guy who has it simply give it to the owner of one of those rare cars? Of course not--he should sell it to him. Say someone came across a 427 FE block that was originally in an AC Cobra, but was broken and the guy found it sitting in a machine shop. The block can be repaired, and he knows where the original car is...the original block would certainly make the car worth a lot more. What should the guy do? How about original Hemi engine blocks? Galen Govier has a data base with engine numbers and the cars they were originally shipped in. He's reunited several blocks with their original cars. Should the guy who owns the block simply give it to the car owner? I don't think so. Numbers matching parts are what makes a vehicle valuable. The guy who is restoring the car has a monetary interest in the car, and the guy who has the part should profit from it as well. If you came by the documents honestly, send the guy a certified letter, and tell him you'd like to discuss selling the documents to him. He's got a lot of money, so he's used to dealings in the business world. Make no mistake--this is business. There is NO reason you should be ashamed or embarrassed for selling a part of a car that makes it more valuable to the owner. (again, provided you came across the stuff legally). Heck, if we're talking about something that could increase the car's value over $500K, it'd even be a good idea to get a lawyer and have him negotiate on your behalf, for a percentage. If the car's owner doesn't want them, the next owner will. And you might find out that when this guy goes to sell the car, he suddenly decides your asking price wasn't out of line. We need the whole story, not the little kid version. -Brad
A $2 million car by its very nature has history and background. I can't believe it would sell so high, then crash in value due to no provenance. . If it had the documents to start with, losing them is not fun, but it does not cut the value to 1/4 of the original value. I would guess a few percent is all. I think your "buddy" is S.O.L. if he's planning on making a killing. Am I imagining wrong here: "Golly, I have papers that will make the car worth $1.5 Million more, so it should be a slam dunk to soak the owner for, oh, maybe $500,000!" It's worth something, but I bet it isn't worth near what you think. Perhaps a couple grand? Hard to say when you give no details. Why hide the details? I doesn't affect the deal in any way. Put 'em on ebay and notify the car's owner. Then you'll find out what they are worth. $50?
Thanks for mentioning this rathbone,............. If this happens to be the paperwork for Al's Camaro, It was stolen. I would suggest if it is, "Your friend" had better contact Al, or myself A.S.A.P. ( I had seen the paperwork in the past and it did exist until it was liberated at the auction) A reward might still be in order, unless extortion is involved, in which case things for "your friend" could get very sticky. If it is, this is serious business !
well the hell with it, why not throw out the whole story.... here it is boys: My grandfather was Ray Kinney. im not going to get into a biography here but all the big names(gene winefield/sam and chip foose/etc) all know my family very well the information i have is about a wood bodied lagonda http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z12699/Lagonda_Rapide_Tulipwood_Boattail_Racer.aspx http://www.forbes.com/vehicles/2002/09/17/0917vow.html http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode=MO07&CarID=r250 my grandfather and my dad built this car......in 18 months the history behind the car was lost after it was sold to a man in japan, my only guess was the language barrier. it is no joke, im not a punk ass kid trying to be cool... i just wanted to know who to talk to about trying to sell the picture negitives and copys of the designs and plans i have. and yes i will not give the stuff i have away, the man who owns this car paid like 500k for the car, it once sold for like 2mil. once he gets what i have he just made a terriffic investment. if anyone out there thinks i am a liar post it, i can prove this was built by us, i have the original door for the passenger side without the racing hoop.....and yes i can post a picture of me holding it. and the reason i want to sell this info is to pay for a hardbound book to be wrote about my grandfathers life.......yeah im not a selfish piece of crap? now am i? everybody that tried to belittle me give it a rest please. And why in the hell would i steal the papers? i have enough materials to make another wood body just like that lagonda. --Cody
i am still mourning the loss of my grandfather i dont need to be called a thief, ''huckster'', or anything else ...ok? i have enough bull s*** going through my head right now
Well thank goodness ( I will be able to sleep tonight),.......... I am so Sorry about all that, but the Camaro paperwork is a Very Bad subject,..... Very Cool car your Grand Dad worked on there, looks like he was a very talented man, and I am sorry for your loss...... oh yeah, I really dig your 33 Coupe !
Dry you eyes princess, what the fuck did you expect? Give us sweet FA info on a potently serious issue and it seemed to all that you were just some ass hole out to get rich. You only have yourself to blame for the posts calling you all those mean and nasty names. Need a hug from mommy to make it all better?
There was no reason you couldn't come out and tell us that right away. But now that you have, I see no reason why you couldn't offer this stuff to the current owner for a reasonable price. If I owned that car, I would want to have that stuff, and I don't see why you shouldn't get some money for it. It was your Grampa's stuff, and if you're really using the money to write a book about his life then I think it's a great idea. The problem would be coming up with a reasonable price. I mean, you can't expect to get $100K for it, even if you reason that the value of the car could appreciate that much with the documentation in hand. But on the other hand, it was your grandfather's stuff and it does have value beyond sentimentality. A guy would really have to know what you have to come up with a price. But if I were you I would contact the current owner of the car, tell him that you're the grandson of the original owner, tell him what you have and see if he's interested in it. I would think he would be. The story might even be worthy of a chapter in your book.
Cody, I hate to disappoint you, but that paperwork is only worth what the current owner is willing to pay for it. Since it is not factory or period-built coachwork, my (somewhat educated after 30+ years in the business) guess would be that the papers are worth a couple grand. In fact, if your docs can prove conclusively that the "tulipwood" body was NOT built in the 1930s, the documents might even de-value this unfortunate car further, thus being of no intererst to the current owner. Sometimes an aura of mystery is much better than the cold, hard facts . . .
so out of everyone in here.....nobody knew my grandfather? (Ray Kinney) well does anyone remember this car then? http://www.hotrod.com/eventcoverage/grand_national_roadster_show_2001/photo_07.html that started out as 12 sheets of alluminum!!!....and yes that has 3 piece billet ardun heads. http://www.barrett-jackson.com/staging/carlist/items/Fullsize/Cars//20381/20381_Side_Profile.jpg or this car http://www.dimoramotorcar.com/ajd_sceptre.html if anyone is interested i can post some other links of the other cars he built....??
I don't know the name, but thanks for the links. No ned to post more, most people here can do searches....
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