Are traditional hot rods and Customs too perfect now?

I thought you were trying to say that, yes, some Hot Rods are built too perfect and loose Character because of it.

And that you assumed Kevin was too much of a Hack to be able to do that.

I rate his abillities quite a bit higher than that.

 

I think if you gave 10 guys here the same exact box of parts & a body & turned them loose- you will have 10 different levels of build.
Some are satisfied to just get it together & are quite happy with that. For some- the journey isn't as important as the destination. Others- the journey & the details is everything & they are depressed when it's finally road ready. Then there are others.
Me for example. With cars- I'm a perfectionist. I can love your car w/ it's almost fitting doors & 1/8" off seam but for me- I go insane getting every gap- every detail just right. I hate it!!!! People will see my car at a show & tell me it's flawless. Hardly- I could spend an hour picking it apart. I'm never satisfied w/ any of the cars I've owned. I coulda-shoulda seems to be a trademark for me. I wish I could settle for less toil (on my end) & build more for fun but it's in my DNA. Some cars I can get pretty close & be reasonably satisfied. Most I wind up selling off before I have brain fade & tear it down & start over.(I've done that too). Some cars- my vision exceeds my talent & for me- my only choice is to hire someone more talented than myself. Not a HAMB friendly choice but my only choice if I desire sanity.
This Deuce is a So-Cal built car through & through (check their current project page). It's probably the best built car I've ever owned & the most fun to drive. It's the only car I've ever owned that wasn't built by me but the one that driven the most miles.
Is it perfect because So-Cal built most of it? hardly. But it's better than anything I could have ever done & I've built a shit load of cars!.
It's also the only car I've ever owned that I look for an excuse to go for a drive.
100 mph & I can let go of the steering wheel & it's dead straight.

The ProStreet 55- do I have enough C12 race fuel? Are the cops out today? Is there a puddle or loose gravel anywhere (over 600 hp & a locker)? Can I even drive that road at my ride height? Was that a cop on that side street I just blew past? Am I too loud (dual 3" exhaust = yes!) Am I running hot? How's the tranny temp w/ the 4,000 stall converter?What's that noise? (always in fear something is coming apart). Can I move the car at the green light w/o breaking the tires loose w/ the cop in the next lane? (It takes talent- it will churp them at idle)
The least fun car to drive I ever built.

 

any car that is perfect is too nice for me.......i like to drive my cars and they get stone chips and scratches along the way. I cant have a perfect car,its not in the cards for me.............and worrying about a silly millimeter off is in my book over the top.

 

Someone's idea of "perfect"- and I cannot judge because I cannot weld- all my stuff is "bolt together" ONLY!

 

Bingo. Period perfect... a TRUE Traditional Hotrod. A lot of guys don't get this point.

Too perfect and it's something that is beyond traditional, ...no longer "Period perfect".

 

Today's original ideas are the antithesis of traditional or period correct.

 

It's hard for us to rate anyones abilities. But we can rate people's knowledge based on what they have written.

Kevin seems quite knowledgable about traditional hot rods. He's got a passion to build traditional hot rods, and do things differently. He's not about building "quintissential hot rods"... but he does build period cars that could have been built years ago. To me, that's cool. It's also a bit of a challenge.

Anyone who pays attention and has basic skills can rattle off a laundry list of parts to build a traditional hot rod.

But to do it like Kevin does... which is what I would call a "plausible recreation" takes more skill than just ordering up, searching for and assembling all the right parts.

Now I am not in a position to rate what Kevin is capable of... I can only speculate based on what I have seen him do.

To build a "perfect" hot rod... one that has a fit and finish that is capable of winning an AMBR trophy, the Riddler Award or in out realm, Pebble Beach... it takes some serious skills.

Skills that someone who only has two or three hot rods under their belt, let alone 10 or 12... isn't going to have.

Even if you haven't built that many cars... you CAN build "perfection" through having a lot of money.

Hence my comment.




Years ago when I came up with the schema TIME + MONEY + TALENT = Hot Rod

Kevin added "DETERMINATION".

Kevin does have determination...

Sam

 

This may have been true alot of the time, but there are no absolutes.

 

Check out the Acme Speed Shop 36 5 window on some of The Primer Nats posts and you'll see that cars are still being built that improve on the original but don't look like the result of a bad drug day. The car in question is based on the Westergard look with refreshing changes. it is a absolute stunner and hopefully in the next day or so will have a thread on here.

 

I think a certain elemnent of the spectators feel that their 10.00 or what ever they paid to get in the gate gives them the right to do just that. The guy may have actually felt that he was paying a real compliment and being "with it" in the process.

As far as build quailty, I think a lot of us older long time rodders have finally developed the patience to take the time to make things fit a bit better than we did when we were starting out and now we can afford the proper tools to do the job right.

Also back in the day we didn't have near the information available to a lot of us so that we actually did things first rate. See a chopped coupe in one of the little magazines. Buy one for little of nothing and get your buddy who's dad owned a torch to help you chop it. Sometimes using a yard stick or foldout carpenters ruler to measure with. Right now you could find two or more threads with step by step instructions to do a similar chop here on the HAMB showing how not to make mistakes that were pretty common years ago. As someone else mentioned there were guys who built rods that had never actually seen another rod in person to have anything to compare to.

You also have to consider that we do things now that were not commonly done in the past. I remember big discussions in the early 70's in Central Tx as to taking the body off the frame during a build was a good idea. Some argued that you would distort the body if you pulled it off the frame to do the frame. Others chimed in that they wanted to clean up their chassis to a new level.

I want my truck to be as nice top and bottom as I can get it this next time around but it won't be a trailer queen and I hope I never get the attitude that it is too nice to take on extended road trips. Yea the frame will be finished off and painted and everything on the chassis will be detailed for once. Just because I want it that way for my own satisfaction. The doors will fit better than last time and this time I may actually be able to get glass in them that will roll up and down. I hope it has an " hey cool" look and stance" and that it gets a bit of positive attention but won't get too worried if it is still the rig behind the rig getting it's photo taken at one of the rod trots along the way.

 

One other thing to consider...

I've owned cars and bikes that were toooo nice.. in my book at least. Pretty to look at, but damn I worried about them all the time. LOTS of blood sweat and tears in them, not to mention what some would call "soul"... But I was always worried about them because they were so nice.

They turned out to be just stunning projects, but I never really enjoyed them as much as other half finished "beaters".

just personal preference I guess. Some builders/owners cant stand it until its exactly "right" in their eyes.

I understand both sides, I just have a personal preference.

 

this is a great little subjective topic. In my little world, it's all working out ok. Sure at one end of the spectrum there are guys over restoring cars and building fresh traditional cars, some constructed entirely of parts that didn't even exist a year ago. How can these too perfect cars be traditional? But they can be... On the other end we have 'r@t rods' were old parts combine in a way that gives an old feel.

And then theres us, the guy in his garage, somewhere in the middle trying to find the nirvana of the perfect hot rod. The guy who's working hard, wrenching in his free time, but manages to stash enough cash aside to spring for the right part at the right price building the car as perfect as he knows how. The guy that chipped the fresh paint in an unnoticeable spot putting that last fender bolt in, maybe not too noticeable but he knows it's there. The guy that is barely finished one thing before diving into the next. The guy who's just one paycheck away from that 'last' part for the car, but we all know a hot rod is never really done... It might not be perfect and it might not ever be done to the owner, even if it looks done to you and me. It's someone working to build the best damn car they can. And then somewhere we rediscover that this is not only tradition, it's passion.

 

Hell yes!

 

I stopped reading about halfway thru, so this might have been said, but I personally think that perfection is a great goal AS LONG AS THE CAR GETS DRIVEN.

The minute the car is too nice to drive, you've crossed the line, otherwise keep working and striving for the best, however you percieve "best" to be.

I owe my car-education to my dad, and one of the things he repeated over the years as I learned to build was this: do your best and it'll still be fucked up. That might come off as harsh, but I understood what he meant, odds are pretty good you'll miss something or not truly get it "perfect", but he also always said: it's not broke until we can't fix it... I guess that translates to what I now beleive, that the project is never done and there's always something to improve or tweak, so just enjoy the ride literally and figuratively.

 

i think you misunderstood me,,,
its possible to come up with fresh ideas that are still period correct,,,,just takes some imagination and thinking outside the box,,

trust me,,im all about tradition..

 

IMHO doing it exactly like it was done in the day becomes a little too close to restoration. I mean are you trying to restore the car to original, or replicate a style that was seen in the day? Or are you doing your own thing, pleasing your own tastes and getting your ride on the road the way you want it? Who in the end do you need to satisfy? Show me innovation and style and something you've built to your own taste and I can respect and appreciate it, doesn't mean I have to like it, but I will respect it more than just a copy of something already done.

 

[said with a nasally accent] Me no like high maintenance.

 

Dave Lane is my favorite builder. Poteet's and Button's 32s are breathtaking in the details. But the Rolling bones cars have soul. They are approachable. You look at the simplicity and say I could do that. They get it. No one off parts. No Kinmonts. No high dollar artillery wheels. Just nice clean swapmeet parts.

 

I used to think I was pretty good at building hot rods until I found the hamb. There are so many good builders now, I feel like a hack. I think there are way more high end cars and builders now than there were 20 years ago.

 

NOW you're fuckin talkin' bubba.

personally, i really admire a TRUE survivor car, (the Tom Orren roadster comes to mind immediately) as well as a great restoration of a survivor such as the Mondello & Matsubara Fiat is about perfect, but that kinda lends itself to the point... its perfect! there are going to be a lot of things missing or ground smooth, or polished over that were there, but now gone.

the other side is a car like your old car Kevin... that thing was just fucking SPOT ON. all the details were there and correct, so much so that it woulda been a bitch to find much not period on the car. but, i think all the attention to detail and we start losing site of the forrest for the trees. like larry said, when is enough, enough?

the people who were building hot rods in the 40's 50's and into the 60's... they knew when to say "good enough, lets haul ass"

 

This has to be one of the more interesting discussions I have witnessed on the HAMB. One I have with myself all the time being around cars of all types. Boil all of these thoughtful relevant comments down and we are defining humanity. We are essentially not happy unless we are contemplating the next step up. Along the way every now and then someone produces a classic that endures over time and we covet it.
That being said, truly beautiful design can initially go unnoticed. The flash gets em every time.
With the risk of sounding sappy. At the end of the day working on, driving or just staring at my car I ask myself "am I having fun?" That's the point.....I hope.

 

An interesting topic an a lengthy read i might add ...I would like to think that "the quest" can only be a good thing in being that the rods and customs built today will outlive their forefathers due to better engineering and bodywork standards .....

 

Perfection is a beautiful thing to look at, but it's usually roped off with a "Do not touch!" sign on it. When I got into hot rods, the cars I loved were the show cars and the magazine cars. A lot of times, they were one in the same. As I grew older, I came to learn that a lot of those cars were rarely driven and it made me ask, "Why bother?". Cars are made to be driven.

Lately, I have seen some cars that I consider perfect, but what makes them even better is knowing they get driven. Building the perfect car and then being scared of driving it would seem foolish to me now. I think some of the builders of today have found a medium ground. Perfection by using the new techniques of today, yet making a car that does what a car was intended to do. Drive.

In trying to duplicate the look and feel of times past, some advances in technology can't help but be installed on a build that will be driven on the streets safely. It may appear that the owner was trying to be perfect in a traditional build, but maybe he was just taking advantage of the new ways of doing things. There are a lot of original hot rods and customs that are considered perfect and are held in high regard, but upon close inspection, are they really safe and reliable by todays standard? A lot of times, no.

 

I think everyone strives to do the best they can. Is that to perfect, I don't think so I think it is about pride in your work. I feel if I can do it so can someone else and if someone else can do it so can I. It may take me longer or more tries but we are all human.
Josh

 

Mixed emotions, can think of times the answer is yes, and in the same breath no.

Money? No, it’s just a tool, a resource that is often abused, and 'under-appreciated/over-valued'.

Skills & time? Mmmm, these are the benchmark, but like anything, the glue that binds them is 'balance', like an artwork, you need the details, but you also need the big picture, and adding more of one element requires you to feed off the other to 'keep it real'. Part of me thinks that you need to know when to stop, but by the same token, you would be a fool to stop detailing and refining (evolving, and giving 'depth') under the proviso of being ‘purpose orientated’, but again, this requires the understanding of 'balance'.

Call me a romantic fool, but I view 'traditional rods' (not customs, that’s a different topic altogether) like a beautiful woman, under the pretense that was once 'explained' to me……"there’s nothing more attractive then a self confident woman….."

Now, while I let you think about that, let me offer some background 'color'……
<O</O<O</O
It doesn't matter if she’s doesn't have the perfect body, nor the perfect skin, or hair, or 'features', nor does it matter if she’s in the most expensive dress, or a old and tattered pair of jeans, there is just something 'HOT' about the look in her eyes, and the way she uses what she has...... and that comes with experience, and understanding.

"I’ve seen perfection, with the best of everything, and purity that is commonly out of reach to the regular guy, but, she’s got nothing on my wife, who, with a age weary body, and scars to prove it, gleams like a star in the darkness, with a character that would be lost if perfection was the sole attraction...."

My point? The original question, "Are traditional hot rods and Customs too perfect now?" kind of symbolizes the answer, as we're highlighting the details, and have taken our eyes off the 'big picture'.... after all, does it matter if a beautiful woman has a perfect haircut, or the perfect dress....nope....what are you looking at?


Cheers,


Drewfus

 

A hot rod that is "perfect" is really a show car......I prefer a nice hot rod.

 

How elegantly spoken
Bravo mate !

 

I see your point. I myself am a perfectionist but sometimes its the imperfect aspects of the car that gives it character or "presence". What you describe in your post makes me think about the those who thought chopping a top was a crazy idea. If you think it will look good, just go for it.
BTW I completely understand your sign reference. I have seen many driving through west Texas that look terrible but some you come across are far from perfect but look great.
-Jason

 

rent the documentary 'Helvetica'. Yes, its about a typeface. Yes its damn interesting. Now consider the documentary in the context of cars and the times when they were built. At least I think this is what you are getting at. The sign in an EXCELLENT example of this.

I dunno, just a thought.

 

Perfect Imperfection. I'm not sure if I read that somewhere or made it up but I think that's what your talking about in your sign. Pin-striping looking perfect until you get right up to it. Tommy the Greek once striped a motorcycle tank for me. Five teardrops right in the top middle. They were far from perfect from my eye view sitting on the seat. White outline not quite covering all of the center color. But it was perfectly imperfect. Wish I still had that tank. Bill Burnham wrote an article about it once. I will try to paraphrase it. He said most people build their cars in a small garage and never stand back and look at them. A grill an inch too high will kill the look of a roadster. An engine sitting at the wrong angle will do the same. God knows Bills Ol Blue was far from perfect but who wouldn't want to own it. And who would change anything on it? I like the example of the Omish furniture. Something left a little imperfect. Gary