A sad story I've heard way too many times

A few days ago a buddy confided in me about how unhappy he was with a shops progress on his car, he got a little emotional about the possibility of yanking his unfinished car..Knowing the fallout from such an action, lawsuits, loss of new friends, etc..Guys, especially those seeking advice about hanging out your shingle and putting your talent to work..Its like opening a new restaurant,( one of the biggest business gambles) you should have enough money borrowed or saved and set aside to operate with and pay bills for a least a year..you can't expect your day to day, plate by plate revenues to sustain you..that first year is for building a reputation, showin off, word of mouth..If you take that down payment and make your truck payment and buy groceries and then don't have enough for parts, materials and salaries you're on the Highway to Hell..the usual remedy is to take on another car,another down payment, then when the first guy comes in and sees the flurry of work on the second car he has every right to be pissed off..some guys have money and no time, some others have time and no money. We need each other to make this world go round..Me, I quit smoking and painting and started to enjoy Life a little more..Happy trails

 

The shop I worked in out of High School had similar problems. A guy would bring in his car and want all kinds of custom work done,that took many hours,and then get pissed whe other cars were done before his. My boss would take in other cars that were quick jobs,to keep the cash coming in and the guys with the big jobs always got mad. You have to take in the quickies and generate income to pay the guys in the shop who are working on cars. Mr Pissed would come by once a month and pay for the work that had been done on his car. I hated it! When I quit,I decided I wouldn't work in another shop. Too much stress,and I wasn't the owner! I don't know how some shops do it.

 

If you're into hot rods and the majority of the people you know are the same, it's easy to feel like you cold start up a shop. The sad truth is that hot rods and speed equipment are a VERY narrow market. Tread carefully.

 

Sounds like some people need to take a course in Business management before even considering opening up their own show.
I have been self employed most of my life and seen and heard it all before.
What "New " friends" is pal going to lose if he pulls his car from a shop that ain't working on it?
There are no Friends in business,you go into biz to make money not Friends.

 

it`s the hardest way to make a living I have found !
but I wouldn't have it any other way.
it sure is easy to get the snow ball to hell rolling once you start to fall behind .
rent/bills and credit can kill you. I have seen some bad stuff over the years !
big shops taking a big deposit and then another, and another ?
and wind up paying the rent to store these cars while playing catch up on them
all ?
I got tiered of paying rent ! and built a little place in the country.
that I can build one or two cars at a time for now ,
works pretty well ,
with out that big rent bill every month .

 

There is a difference IMO in not working on it and working slower than one would like. Bad Bob described what is likely the overwhelming vast majority of shops.

They simply have to bring in quick money to keep the bills paid. Having a house built or an addition is usually the same way. The owner is constantly juggling jobs to keep his head above water.

Nobody having the work done likes it but as long as there is regular progress, in most cases you just have to accept how it is. Or of course, do it yourself.

 

Then you have the ones that watch Foose do a whole frame off in seven days and wonder why theirs is taking so long! Try and explane they have 3 crews doing the work around the clock not to mention all the parts and pices have already been ordered and are their, they have mock up cars at their disposal if needed also. Doing resto or rod work is very time consuming and not very profitable compaired to doing collision work.

 

I will tell you somthing to do not want to here.

If you have to do quicky jobs all month - passing up or blowing off time booked to work on a major project that is in your shop, IT means only ONE THING.

Your not making enough on the Major Project & Your customer is NOT paying enough for you to work on HIS Major project.

Happins all the time. B.T.D.T.

Builders Don't want to admit how much time & money doing this stuff the correct way can take.

We say - ( we can make up the time lost )

Nope. You can't.

& customers DO NOT want to here how much time & money doing this stuff the right way can take.

End result -

Broke builder.

Pissed off customer.

Years ago I had a Very sucsessfull - Very weathy man come to see me about building a ( fill in the blank ) car.
He gave me a good idea of what he wanted to have built & told me ( another shop - another builder ) allready told him he could do it & what this all would cost. ( but he wants me to do it )
The numbers He showed me were not even close.
I told him There was no way I could do what he wanted for the amount ( the other shop ) had estimated. As a matter a fact - I couldnt do it for 4 times this amount.

Very sucsessfull Man was VERY bent.

He stormed out of my studio, But called two days latter - again asking if I would build his dream car for ( x ) dollars - again I said no way.

Two weeks latter - same deal.

Think about it this way - Dodge makes how many Vipers a Year..?
2000..? 5000...???

IF they make ANY money at all on a high profile car like this - it's not much.

There building 1000's of the same one.

How the hell is a small shop going to build ( 1 ) for about the same money...?

Well, your not.


Do it your self
For your self -
& Have fun.

 

I've noticed the guys who make the biggest stink about you not getting your car done quickly enough, or on time, are also the ones who, when the car is finished.....don't have the money to pay you!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF!

 

i dont see how some shop owners do it and to them i have a lot of
respect , i have a friend who owned a shop for years and like most it was
a day to day struggle same as most , he had good days and bad as its a feast
to famine bussiness he got pretty good at making the good times work to cover the bad
times and i have seen him go to the shop at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning to
work on cars just to get a heads up on things and do this for months on end.
not long ago this kid whos been hanging around the shop for awhile comes in
and tells him he wants to buy the shop and that his parents are gonna help
him out with the purchase , my pard makes the decision to go ahead and let
this kid have to shop inventory and all , before the final deal is made my
friend calls me to let me know the future owners are coming by to do a final
inventory and that i need to come pick up my own stuff before the new owners
can lay claim to it , so anyway me and him are in his showroom bullshiting
and i ask him if hes really gonna do this to this kid? and he starts telling
me how he does have some reservations about the whole deal and maybe he might try
and talk this kid out of the deal when in comes the parents..
the parents start in on how they are gonna do this and how they are gonna do that!
look at me and my friend like we just stepped of the turnip truck and proceed
to breeze (for lack of a better word) from the showroom into the shop to look
over things..
my friend looks at me and says OOOH YEAH!!

 

Bill them at regular intervals. Bill them often. Try not to get too big a down payment. If you can't stay ahead of the customer you're having problems. Correct them immediatly or you'll fail. Lost income is forever lost. Never ever "made up" later. Progress =$$$. It's always more than craftsmanship...ALWAYS. Cash flow is the air the shop breathes and will die without it. Credit is not the answer. Know whether or not your customer is able to pay or has the "I want its" real bad and is willing to try to fuck you over. It happens more than some of you may think. In a manner of speaking you need to be able to call the bluff as far as the ratio to progress/payment. A shop need to get ahead of the customer and stay there to the end or it fails. You need a substantial balance at the end of the job to carry the next long term project. Of course none of this just comes because you know about cars and do good work. It's a sometimes ruthless position to be a shop owner. A shop only keeps a very busy upper hand if it produces in a profitable manner every week. There's no philanthropy in this biz be it hot rods or restoration. And it's that very desire on the part of some customers that begins the problem. It's nice, or kool, or important so you should wnat to do it regardless of the finacial outcome to you and your buisness...BULLSHIT! Pay me or get out. Sorry to sound such a hard ass but it's true. Been there and done that. Still here aside from a few hiccups. All in all a winning reputation and good ethics will make any shop or project successful. Be honest with yourself and your customer base regarding time and abilities. It shows in everything you do.

 

I have owned and operated a body and frame shop since 1981. Some resto's and hot rod builds. Collision work is where the money is at. I always have a resto or hot rod in process for a customer here. I do the specialty work at a reduced rate and make it clear with the owners the work will be fill in. I basicly subsidize the big specialty jobs with the good quick collision or frame jobs. I never run out of work, never get caught up. Its a good thing.

Longest customer job was a restoration on a A coupe. Was in the shop 8 years. Many are here for 5 years. Never had a customer pull a job out of the shop. I have told customers more than once the car is not chained down you can take it out of here anytime you want. Old cars are a lifestyle for me. I love working on the old cars and will certainly never get rich from the work I do on them.

Communication between shop owner and car owner is critical. Talk and take action before the blood pressure becomes elevated. Steve

 

The company I work for a similar but different problem. We R&D and manufacture performance parts for a high end American supercar. When we were still doin installs, we would only take in one car at a time so we could devote all of our time to one vehcile, get it in and get it out ASAP. We figured that would be the best way to do quick turn over and get the customer their car back in the fastest way possible.

However, working it that way we ended up having a 6-8 month waiting list for other jobs, no matter how big or small and the customers waiting would be ansty about how long it was taking before we could have them drop their car off. Some guys would call everyday, stop by, email constantly, etc. Some guys even had their cars just shipped in from across the country WITHOUT a specified start date!!! (like that should put them to the head of the line!!) The cars would just show up at our door!!! Then those customers would bitch that we hadn't started the work on their cars even though they didn't even have an appointment, signed upgrade list, work order confirmation, etc!!

It ended up being just a huge pain in the ass and a babysitting job for me because I always dealt directly with the customers. Finally the owner came to me and asked what was causing me the most stress. I told him the customer cars in house. He told me to finish up what we had and do not allow any more cars in... he wanted to cut all the in-house installations all together. At first I disagreed with him as I thought it was a good money maker for us (we were charging triple digits per hour). He said he didn't care and it wasn't worth it.

That was over a year and a half ago. Our overall sales and profit has gone up, costs have gone down and the headaches for me are much less. Granted, we do manufacture just about all of our proprietary products in house to keep costs low, but we do still resell many other products from other companies.

I guess what this is all about is... It doesn't matter if you try doin one car at a time or as many as you can fit in yer shop... Customers will always be assholes and think their car is the only one that matters, no matter how big or small the job is. Especially when yer dealin with rich assholes. LOL No offense to the rich guys on this board, I'm just a jealous asshole. LOL

 

It's for exactly this reason that I opened my shop, but am not taking in customer builds. I have a excellent day job which is allowing me to sock away money monthly for the time when I will have a year's worth to quit the day job and go full time in my shop. I have enough to pay overhead saved but not enough to eat for a year. I still open the shop daily, chat with the other guys and am working on building the reputation and skills necessary to be successful when the shop finally opens. It doesn't hurt that my day job is as a manager of a company either so I've learned the skills necessary to profitably run a business.

God willing, another year of tedium.

 

A man in the business was once asked how to make a small fortune building speciality cars. His answer "Start with a big fortune."

 

I don't consider myself a shop owner as I do very little customer work.I am retired and owe nothing so cash flow is not my big concern.
What I prefer is to buy a project ,work on it almost exclusively and have it always for sale at whatever stage it is in.
If someone buys it before it's finished I just find another one to start. There are no quality of work or parts issues as they are right in front of you for inspection at any time.
My City leaders and insurance man like it this way also ,as the vehicles belong to me and I am not running a commercial shop full of other peoples stuff.
This may not work for others but is great for me.

 

I own my own shop, I do everything from stock restos to customs etc..
One of the things I've learned is to not to take every job that comes your way.
Some people just can't be satisfied and/or don't want to spend any kind of money that it takes to do the job right.
The posters who have said that you need to have about a years worth of financing are right on the money.
I didn't have much quid stashed when I started out, but with the wife working and me in the shop we got by OK.
All in all I wouldn't trade it for anything. I enjoy being my boss.

 

"Doing resto or rod work is very time consuming and not very profitable compaired to doing collision work."

That about sums it up. For most of us, we know the shop owner and he agrees to give us a break, knowing he'll use the car as "filler". We get a deal, he makes sure he's busy. You should know that going in. The other problem with custom work is that it's hard to estimate the time and we (or at least me) adds more modifications as the project progresses. If you want to see progress, there are professional shops that specialize in restorations and custom work. They are WAY more expensive but will get it done faster. I can't afford them, so I'm OK with slow, but steady progress. Just my 0.02.

I try to keep things moving and help with the cash flow by paying for materials up front and then coming by at the end of every week with coffees and cash for the work done. I've also willingly paid more for a job done because I know they spent way more time than expected. It's hard to estimate how long custom work will take on a 50+ year old body.

 

Think Steve said it all right here.

Even though I am coming to this discussion from the customer side, I too own a busines. A plumbing shop with a very good reputation that has had the same customer base of general contractors for years. So would like to think we know how to treat and keep customers.

Communication...both the abiltiy to give AND receive information.

Have had work done by a few shops over the years where the following scenarios played out:

Shop A;
Invoices were always Two to Three times what was estimated (and every one was paid to the penny). Now, my pockets are not deep so it was shocking at times. Told shop A that their estimating had to improve greatly so I could be sure to have funds available. Finally figured out that they were afraid the job would stop if they were up-front about the cost because they HAD the abiltiy to estimate correctly. Very competent guys, just afraid reality would scare away customers. Very frustrating! However, their communication skills are excellent where matters about the poject are concerned.

Shop B;
Decide to throw some local guys work that opened a new "Rod Shop". Something that normally would happen at home but these kids just seemed worthy of a little local support. The task was to put Jamco suspension under a Shoebox Coupe, simple enough. It was explained to me that they were going to clip a '96 Camaro and put that under the Shoebox instead because it was superior. No ! I tried, (many times) to explain "traditonal" to them and what I wanted, they just wouldn't let go of the Camaro idea. Were bound and determined to do it their way. In the end the Shoebox never saw the inside of their shop.

Shop C; (current shop)
Communication breakdowns come too frequently and at too important junctures. To the point that I verbally communicate everything, e-mail it all as well so that there is text to refer to. And now, copy the e-mail to an employee who I at least think hears the words that come out of my mouth, and call him directly when I'm a little unsure.

EXAMPLE....Exhaust system was complete when they received the car except for stainless tips and finish. Told them to send the pipes to Jett Hot for the Sterling finish after tip length was established and completed. Just happened to show up one day and notice the exhaust was gone, when I inquired when they went to JH in Arizona was told they were across town being powder coated BLACK ! WTF? Apparently they had been dropped off that morning but were supposed to be done by the end of the day. My answer was, " you better pray they got behind or lazy today cuz if they're done you'll be paying the powder coater and then paying to have them stripped". Then, months later when they were still sitting in the shop unfinished I inquired why they were still there. "We haven't found a box big enough yet" A very impressive answer don't ya think ? Now, we are waiting for them. My blood pressure is currently elevated.


Sorry to ramble but I've heard alot of " fuck the customer, they don't pay and are looking for freebies", and am sure that's true in some cases. However, there are alot customers out there (like me) who pay their bills don't ask for anything but to be treated fairly and given reasonably good information.

BTW...when this is all said and done, heading back to shop A next time a project needs something with the following caveat: "next time an invoice is received that is more than 25% over the estimate, will be down immediately with payment, and a baseball bat !"

 

One car at a time; customer gets a price range during the consultation then it's time and materials all the way. Thats how my shop operates; works for me and the customer.

 

Pissed off customers are the norm in any business, some just don't have a clue what it takes. Or what kind of money is involved in the process. The biggest thing is communication; tell them straight out what its going to take. If you’re losing money you’re definitely not charging enough, or need to tighten the reigns on your spending. You shouldn't need a years worth of cash to keep a float. That right there says you’re fucked. Nothing should come out of your pockets for a costumer’s project. Their car their money. Sure it takes money to get your name out but one thing for sure is never dive in head first. Start off slowly one ad at a time, don't buy unnecessary tools and don't hire anyone but yourself until you have incoming positive cash flow. I’ve seen allot of people fail because they expand way to quick and want everything right away.

as soon as you get behind its a bitch to get caught up .and if one customer is unhappy, be sure he tells at least 5 other people about his unhappiness with you and that is hard to get those opinions back your way. I’m not saying be a total kiss ass. Some people are just born unhappy. But you’ve got to at least try to do what you told them you were going to do. If you told them it will be done in 5 weeks you better make sure its done around that time. And not 10 weeks later. And expect them to be cool with it. You’ve got to sometimes think what you would do if you where them.

 

Sorry to be rude, but even though many of the comments here are right on the money, if the shop owner needs to be told these things it's already too late.
You have to distinguish between A: "I have a skill that's worth money", and B: "I know how to run a business".
The guy with only A skills may be a great employee - just tell him exactly what to do, and pay him what he's worth.
But he'll go broke every time, no matter what, when he tries to "go out on his own", until he learns B skills. Some people never get past A, and file bankruptcy every 7 years just like this.
Do you really need 1 years expenses on hand? Depends on your credit, and how much you need to keep food on the table. I started a business 30 years ago using my credit card - because the mark-up on the parts was much higher than the interest I had to pay. All new car dealers "floor plan" their cars - they don't own them, the bank (or GMAC) does. If you have good discipline, you can away with that, it's just another expense.
Most people? Google "sub-prime mortgage default rate".

 

HEY WE GOT RIPPED OFF BY A LOCAL ROD SHOP (IT WAS NOT LOBECKS BUT SOMEBODY ELSE) TOOK A 37 FORD FLATBACK RUNNING 60HP ORIGINAL CAR TO BUIDL INTO A ROD I SUPPLIED ALL THE PARTS ,

THEY GUY COULD NOT DO THE WORK, AND STUFF STARTED TO GET LOST (I THINK STOLEN) I STOPPED SENDING PARTS ASKING WHY I NEED TO SEND PARTS WAY BEFORE THEY WERE NEEDED LIKE MONTHS EARLY,

I SAW LITTLE IF ANY WORK GET DONE AFTER THE CAR WAS TAKEN APART AND PAINT STRIPPED, I STOPPED THE WORK PAID THE MAN WHAT HE ASKED. I TOOK AS I GOT RIPPED OFF!!!!!! MY CAR CAME BACK TO ME IN PIECES AND I MEAN ALL HE DID WAS PAINT STRIP AND DISASSEMBLE A 37 FORD IT COST $13,000 FOR THAT.

I HAVE HEARD ABOUT THIS STUFF MANY TIMES WHEN WE ANSWER PHONE CALLS FROM CUSTOMERS, BUT IT BECAME MORE REAL WHEN IT HAPPENED TO ME.

THE CAR IS NOW IN A SHOP IN CHICAGO AND COMING ALONG FINE, BUT IT IS A YEAR BEHIND.

 

As many have already said, there are many sides to the situation. I have worked for others since '71, and full time since '86. I know there is a lot of discussion here about the cost..ever-rising cost.... of work.

THE SHOP VIEW: I explain it to customers this way. "You think it's a lot of money, but it is also a lot of hours. I don't live as well as many of my customers, but the bottom line is, I have to make a living."

If you think my price is unfair, go elsewhere. I won't have any "heartburn" over it. After all, it is your nickle. I know I am underpriced for my work, not matter what you might believe, but I don't expect to get every job.

I also know that some folks believe a straight body, near perfect paint, and razor sharp art, all is just a matter of pouring cheap paint into a spraygun, and blowing it on. It should not take more than a week, and cost no more than a few hundred bucks, tops! My responsibility is to educate customers, when necessary, and if they don't choose to have me do the job, I offer advice to them at no charge. If they realize I am not upset, or judgemental, maybe someday they will decide to have me do another job.

I accept that sometimes there may be problems, like bad materials from a manufacturer, that the customer expects me to fix, even though I did nothing wrong. The paint company may give me new materials, but I will have to "eat" the labor sometimes. It is part of being in this business, and I will have to charge a little more from every customer, to cover these jobs. I am not in this business to be responsible for things beyond my control, just because nobody else wants to pay for it either. We offer a service, not a charity.

If I am responsible for satisfying my customers, and offer a good product for a fair price, I will stay in business. If I'm not....I won't!

THE CUSTOMER'S VIEW: I expect to be taken care of promptly, and want an honest communication about the details. I want a good job, at a fair price, and if there are problems, that will affect the price, tell me before you do the work, and let me decide what I want to do.

If there is the possibility of future problems, due to the materials, forseeable problems, or compromises that I chose to make, tell me what you will, and won't guarantee.

If the job has problems later, that are beyond a reasonable expectation, I expect you to put a smile on your face, fix it promptly, and at no charge.

If I feel that hiring a business was a pleasant experience, I will recommend the business to friends, and take my next project there, with confidence.

 

I've owned two businesses, one a failure, one a great success. The hardest thing for me to learn was when to say "No" to a customer. It was also the most useful thing I learned

 

Friend of mine has a shop part time. Works off a "draw" account. Customer pays $1000 up front. When that's used up, customer must come down and inspect progress and pay another $1000. Works for him.

 

I've been burned dealing with one man machine shops a hundred times on my employer's dime. When it came time to hire out fabrication on my hot rod there was only one option for payment.

Pay as I go. Stop by frequently and whenever the bill hits a thousand bucks for work performed, it gets paid. And they don't buy anything larger than hardware without my consent. Part supply has not been an issue because I'm involved.

Not only does it reduce the carrying costs for a small shop, but puts the buyer in touch with the whys of the price. Because lets face it, for custom work the end price is always higher than expected by both parties.

good luck with your friend's situation. If he's dealing with good people in a bad spot an honest sit-down might straighten things out. fingers crossed

 

It seems like in our shop we can get our work done, but I have to farm out the paint and body and that's what bites me in the ass everytime. Body shop doesn't understand that theres a time frame for completion. His work is always top notch, but when that puts me behind then the next hurrdle is the upholstery shop. Maybe that why turnkeys aren't as much fun as they used to be. I think I'll concentrate on the chassis & parts business.

 

no deposits.

let the customer buy his own parts.

charge hourly.

get paid weekly.

heaven.

 

I think what it all boils down to is know how. You need to know how to do the work. know how to run the buisness. If your a customer you need to know how to pick a shop and know how to work with them to keep your project on track and progressing. One very importaint thing wether your the customer or shop. Put everything and i mean everything in writing .dont do anything without a contract. OldWolf