Anyways, I went to michigan and brought back the car hauler. It was supposed to have a 351W in it but actually has a 351M that someone swapped in. This thing is a dog! Anyone know anything about this these motors? Can they be built as a torquer? I don't want to spend a lot of money, because I can get a 460 and swap that it for not too many bux.
The 460 will bolt to the motor mounts and transmission already in the vehicle, as the 351-400M engines used the same mounts and bellhousing patterns. That may be your best bet for power gains. But, the 351M isn't all that bad. Any 351C camshaft will work, so a mild hydraulic cam, new timing set (aftermarket with no built in retard) and maybe a Holley 4v carb and headers will do wonders for the motor. The M-series engines weren't great performers in stock form, mainly due to low compression, dismal cam specs and tons of smog equipment. Luckily, it's just a matter of bolt-ons to wake them up some.
The motor seems in good shape, but looks like its only about 8:1 compression. It has only about 140psi in all cylinders, and only pulls 40psi oil pressure, but I hear thats common on these motors. I would like to use it if all it needs is a few bolt ons to wake it up. Its a truck motor, so i need torque and gas milage instead of HP. So the plan - small cam (I am looking at a 194/204@50 on 110 lobe, with 5 degrees advance ground in, good for stock springs), new timing set (will cleveland ones work?), a factory 4 brl intake, and my little Eddy 600cfm carb. That should wake it up some?
Those engines would only have about 8:1 compression, so yours is fine. That cam will work out well for what you're after, and Cleveland timing sets interchange. Edelbrock makes a Performer intake for the 351-400M engines, and good used ones are always on e-bay at bargain prices. Other aftermarket manifolds were also available for these motors back in the day, so running a good intake under your Edelbrock carb is an easy (and affordable) upgrade.
Those 351M400 engines are fat wheezing pigs. Don't waste your time or money, go with the 460. It has way more potential and uses about the same amount of fuel. I realize the 351M400 engines have their defenders but I was in the garage businees when these were still numerous and believe me that out of the hundreds I worked on I only saw a handful that ran right for an engine that size. The engines were designed in a hasty stop-gap measure to meet federal emission standards at a time when the U.S. automakers were caught with their pants down.
The Hackster is right as usual. Its just a matter of decideing what will cost you more and the labor involved.
I have a 351M in my '57 Ranch Wagon. It's big, heavy, ugly, slow and it runs kinda hot, but at least it gets terrible gas milage . The thing is very reliable though, and like most mediocre (sp) '70s American V8s, it probably will never die. As said before, there are a few aftermarket manifolds avaiable for them and Cleveland heads and dress up goodies (I have Cleveland finned valve covers on mine) will bolt on to them. Even so, I still wouldn't bother trying to "punch up" one of these motors.
The truck is currently a stone, but I will try the camshaft and intake swap and see what that does. A 460 swap is out of the budget.
To change to a 429 or 460 you would hve to get the right balance flywheel, so if it is a standard trans that will be Xpensive too. But if you are using it as a truck engine the long rod modified will be better suited with more torque at lower engine speed. Most of the Mods I had to deal with were more a victom of poor maintenance than other problems.
Don't count that 351M out just yet. In stock form they suck for power, but remember they where only around during the worst time for smog controls. They basically come from the 351C family, but the crappy cam and all the smog junk and very restrictive exhaust is what makes them run like they do. They are very sturdy motors though. I used to have a 78 Bronco with a 351M and it turned over 200,000 with no rebuild. Here's a link with some info you might be interested in..... http://www.projectbronco.com/Technical_Articles/351m400_performance_build_up.htm
All of the above.. When I upgraded my 53 Ford Sedan I put a rectangular tube frame with a 80 Chrysler torsion bar K-member to handle the 460 that I had planned on installing in it.. Come to find out Their was No Room for any kind of exhaust manifold (stock or headers) on the drivers side. I also had a 351M and put it in instead. It's not as fast as I would like, but in the five years that it's been in there it starts, runs like a clock and gets you there and back without fail. The 351M is basicly a 400 with a different crank, rod & piston assembly. The 400's were used in trucks and do have web sites devoted to building the for more performance and seem to do very well. I plan to do that to my motor if it ever wears out..
These engines were built with lots of factory cam retard.....get rid of that...put on a good intake/carb/dizzy and it will run good...and forget the stock timing specs...advance it 'till it pings and then back it off a little...years ago one of my fellow IMCA modified competiors ran a 400M in his dirt car and showed plenty of 350's his rear spoiler (and my 351-C, too)...
I'm planning to use one in a '34 Ford truck project, soon. It's built already, with an Edelbrock intake, Holley and headers. I guess the guts are beefed-up, too, but I have no idea how much. Most of the '70s era Ford trucks I've had had them. The biggest gripe I would say I've had would be oil pressure when they get up there in miles. Weak cam bearing design, I think. They always seem to keep running, though, even when they read low oil pressure... The distributor runs off the oil pump, too. I've had the gears shear off the dizzy and leave me stranded... but, any engine has it's weak points. JOE
The 351M/400 (335 family), 429/460 (385 family) all use the same bellhousing pattern, but the motor mounts are different. I am currently doping a 460 swao into my old ford p/u that has a 351M in it. L&L products out of Texas sells these motor mounts, however www.broncograveyard.com sells them a little cheaper. The distributers, timing sets i9nterchange from the 351C and the 351M and the distributers interchange from the 351M to the 429/460, as do timing sets and rocker arms (1.73 to 1 ratio's) however I believe 1974 to 1978 460's are balanced internally where the 351M/400 are externally balanced. Never use a 351M flywheel on a 460 as the bottom will not last (the cranks and rods will have a tendancy to fall out through the oil pan, not a pretty sight). But the 351M with a clevland timing set with a camshaft, intake and exhaust system that compliment one another makes the 351M a good work work horse instead of a dog.
on the 314 & 400M engines, they have a brass tube under the thermostat that gets a pinhole causing them to run hot....replace or inspect it for sure.
A few comments. 351M & 400 rods are the same. The 351M crank & pistons are different that the 400 crank & pistons. Some '73 400s have the SBF tranny pattern. According to Tom Monroe's rebuild book blocks made at the Michigan foundry (not Cleveland) have cracking problems if the date code is before 3-1-77 (7C01). Look for M over CC by oil pressure sending unit.
Some place I have a link to a company in Wisconnson that built a 434 stroker out of a 351/400M block with Austrailian 3V heads and matching intake. If I recall correctly it 10:1 compression and made good power 500ish hp & torque. Ultra flat torque curve and almost perfect hp curve. I'll try to remember to post a link. In stock setup, like you said, it's a dog. But it can be made to run very well. Follow the time proven methods and it will get better. EDIT: These guys built it but the site looks to be either down or maybe out of business. http://www.tmeyerinc.com/
We had 3 in various trucks and all of them spun bearings. I bought a 1978 Grand Marquis to drive in High School (it was $50) and it spun a main bearing. Not impressed with the performance or reliability.
I paid $200 for a '78 Merc sedan 6 or 7 years ago to a guy who claimed the car had the 351 Cleveland engine in it. After I drove it home, I wiped the grease from the engine valve covers and saw on the tag that it was really a 351M. I was ticked and sort of lost interest in the engine. But then every fall about this time, I'd take a battery out put it in the car and the 351M would start right up and sound like a powerhouse. The engine started to grow on me for its willingness to start and run while being totally neglected. I figure I'll use some of the suggestions in this thread to waken it up a little and then put it in my '36 Internaltional pickup that is already set up for a 429/460 Ford.
He was talking about a budget build/improvements, but.....Hot Rod did a build on a 400. Offset stroker, Chevy rods & 340 Mopar pistons, Edelbrock 351C heads & Performer 351M intake.
351M got a reputation for spinning rod bearings & throwing rods. They are big & heavy with little power. You can dump a bunch of money into them & get some torque out of them, but why bother? They have all the disadvantages of big blocks with none of the advantages... Put a 429/460 in there instead.
The Fly wheel isn't really that big a problem , depending on if the 460 is an external balance or internal balance engine . Pre 77 models are internally balanced so a 360/390 FE engine flywheel and clutch assembly will work fine . I paid big bucks from Ford for the exact flywheel , only to find out this little secret later -Have used the Fe flywheels many times since with no problems at all . I strongly disagree with the above statement that the M engine will do fine . I have tried to get just decent performance out of one only to be very disappointed . all the mods here they are telling you may gain a whopping 35 to 50 HP and with that sick engine that isn't nearly enough for the cash you will put into it and still have an engine almost as heavy as the 460 and only half as good. For an example and not the right vehicle for this forum , but I had a 78 Bronco with the 351 --didn't get 10mpg with the 2v and didn't have the power to get out of it's own way --swapped in a 460 PI --with the ford carb --didn't change a thing else and went to 13 -to 15 mpg and had twice the power --a 750 holley on it , then it would smoke the tires but dropped to about 8 mpg . With what you will spend trying to make the 351 run well enough --you can possibly install a pure stock 460 and be much much happier
Had a 78 LTD with one of those boat anchors in it, when I wasn't replacing power valves in the carb I was fixing cracked vaccuum lines , I loved that car, hated the 351M but I loved the car..............
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