Not your Granmaaaw's BANGER

It was tomorrow here yesterday, so c'mon what is it??

 

As for the Id it looks like a Ford tractor engine but I have a 39-40 one in the driveway and it is not . they have valves in the block and part of the bellhousing with the starter hole is cast on the back of the block. It still looks like a tractor engine to me but i might be wrong.
Andy

 

I've given up guessing. bluto has something so oddball (but I'm guessing just as cool) that he's just ringing the bell to make us drool

 

haha just what I was thinking.. now where's the answer!!?

 

It's tomorrow here...

But it's 1982 in Poland...

I thought I knew what that block was about 15 times untill I looked closer...

Ford-Indy experimental? Fergason? Fronty? IDK... My BFF Jill...

 

Is it Funk? Looks like a Ford meant to hang upside down.

 

It's much earlier than a HAL

According to my friend who's Dad collected more banger racing stuff than anyone you'll ever meet it's built by Harry Miller to accept aftermarket double cam heads for Model A

This explains the workmanship

The boss on the side is to support the water pump/mag drive

It is strictly a external oil pump engine. Drilled for full pressure to the rods and mains but you must drill and machine your own pickup

If you look close you'll notice most of the bolt holes are not drilled and tapped yet. This is NOS

There is a spot machined for an idle gear where the cam should be

The block has no place for cam,ports,or pushrods it is strictly OHC single or double.......

The extra pad on top is to allow you to fit heads built for the wider A block

Is it Miller? Don't know the only guy I know that could tell me is dead
But that does kindda fit. I aave a Miller marine cylinder block and the
workmanship is the same

If you look close at Bill's stuff you'll see that most of the block side covers are covering ports too......

There are several differing HAL A/B block heads:

First single cam cam cover is bolted around the ourside and the box is almost flat on top

The first double cam head uses covers in this style... My HAL DOHC head is #006

Chain drive is a very different style to the as are the cam tower and bearing arangement

My guess is only the cams and buckets are the same early and late

Late cam covers are held down with studs thru them..... these are set in the cam bearing caps

This block was set up to be universal ..... if it were just for HAL is would need the spot for idler gear where the cam used to be

I think B/C Blocks worked pretty good. Once people started using them and had them to use they were cheap and easy THIS CHUNK WASN'T CHEAP OR EASY

It would follow that HAL and others might go back to this 5 main design
in their mid 30's engines to get a more stable platform for long distance races

So it's tomorrow

What do you think? That's why I started this. To see what you all think

 

I think it's really awesome...

It'd be the perfect block for the lakes or Bonny becuause you could try different ohc head combinations and wouldn't be limited to finding one that fit just one style of block.

Can you use modern main bearings or is it a babbit deal?

How much would it hurt if you punched a rod through it on a timing pass, though?

Any idea of the quality of the material in the block?

 

It's good close grain cast iron

The main webbing is solid top to bottom

I haven't weighed it but my guess is it's almost as heavy as a ''B/C'' with a cam and valve gear in place

I'm making new main caps it has thin shells with shimmed caps. Not the best idea

I'll make the caps at least pinned if not four bolt

 

all I can say is WOW. I was pretty close with my first guess! wonder how much it would cost to send it to a foundry to have them copy it?? wouldn't that REALLY be the dogs bullocks!

getting it in semi finished state is pretty disconcerting though. makes me wonder if they had a problem during the machining process that made them decide to stop. most NOS pieces this old weren't used for a reason. definitely check it over 200% before doing anything with it. core shift, misalignment etc. did the crank turn ok?

I'm sure none of that is a news flash but things that crossed my mind. Coming from a company that has brand new pretty aerospace parts in a "display case" up front that are all scrap it crosses my mind often when I find things like that.

I have to admit I was perplexed as to why the casting extended to cover where the valves would be when there were no holes in that section of the block!


also, I have read about the miller marine engines. which one do you have? the 151? it crossed my mind that this might have been one.

 

other than it would be great to have a proper looksee. thanks for not posting a "whats it worth thread"...not that you would.

so how about a picture of the head that is going on it?

 

ok, so lets put my little bit of research out here. if this fits in the time frame you are thinking of 1930-ish (before ford comes out with a bit better banger block) that puts it at the time when miller retires from his racing business and goes out on his own. (1930-33) anyone know any of the projects that miller has done during this time frame? appears that this is when the design work for the offy predecessor was done. could this have been the economy offshoot of his "offy" work?? before his business was forcibly bankrupt in 1933 (possibly why you would find an unfinished block)

 

Furrie

Goes in here Mrs Bluto's race car....... With these old carbs and head

got get some rods, pistons,and a really good pan

The car needs a real go thru too........

 

It took all my strength not to tell

 

hmmmm

did some more research. seems leo goossen (miller's engineer) did some design work for riley brett as well as design work for miller-schofield during the 29-31 time period. one of the things he designed was a dohc head for schofield in 29. only three were made. sounds reasonable that during this time frame he would try to design an engine block for riley or schofield.

were the marine blocks iron? I have yet to see any reference to a cast iron block designed by miller. Doesn't seem like something that miller would want. possibly something he would design to a customer requirement though??

 

This isn't just going to bolt together.........

There's a lot of design and build to do

And the best guy to help in laughing at me from his place at the top of a sunny hill......... long buried..... He lived 4-bangers

Next week I'll offer up all the front drive stuff and let you know i this will work or not

Couple things ...... bore centers differ from HAL's head so sleeve and offset bore. The bronze main caps are not going to work. Nor the thin bearing shells that are fitted.

The cranks snout is too short

HAL's oil pump design isn't good

You can bet the side water pump and and mag drive will no doubt take some fiddl'n

The whole mess would be easier if I could use a "B'' Block and I have all that. But I must work to a rule book that states "pre 32"

I'm not complanin' winter's are long here. It may take two but it will run

 

hold up, you're going to offset the cylinders to the crankshaft centers?? if this is based off of a ford setup why are the bores not on ford centers (which I'm assuming the hal heads are)? how big are the bores right now??

if this was made as you say to take ford conversion heads then you've just disproved yourself. maybe this is the reason it was never built?

 

It's itty-bitty but I gotta do it!

You think I'm using FORD RODS???????

Crank pins are in the right place

 

how much is itty bitty? if it's not on ford centers, it wasn't meant to be used with just any ford ohc conversion. must have been a very specific setup.

unless you mean the crankshaft is correct for ford centers but the block is not? could be core shift if that's the case.

 

Man... and to think you found this in a scrap yard... WOW!

Good thing you wrote your name on the side of it so they didn't toss it!

Seriously though... are the center lines for the rods the same as the center lines for the OHC head's bore centers? i.e. the only thing off is the bores in the block?

Would the valves hit the cylinder walls?

Sam.

 

Hey There Four Bangers, I have seen this before, Frankland of Frankland rear ends had some of these in his Storage area. I visited him about twenty years ago in Tampa. I think he said he had them made up to compete with Offys in midget race cars. These are vaguely similar to Ford but was intended to be a separate entity Kinda like Sesco is to the Iron Duke. I have or have had Millers, Offies, Gallivans, Briskos, Hals, Rajos, Hissos, Bugattis, Cragers, 3 port Chevs, Olds, and of course Gemsas. While no one knows everything about these, we need to collect and preserve them. I recently sold a home made "OFFY" to Speedy Bill that someone had poured their life blood into. The builder is long forgotten but you could see amazing craftsmanship and ingenuity as he solved problems like fabbing a block from steel sheets and welded in cylinders. A study of the American race motor and its derivatives can occupy an entire lifetime. Some people are jealous of people with collections and museums but these guys are saving our past. Good on ya!
Norb