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A French block for Bonneville

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by av8, Jul 27, 2007.

  1. av8
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 1,716

    av8
    Member

    The record-holding Tardel-McKenzie blown fuel flathead modified roadster will run at Bonneville during Speed Week ’07 with a fresh race motor based on one of SF Flatheads’ new French flathead blocks. Vern Tardel is partnered with Joe Fazio in the SF Flatheads biz, and they are the sole source of new French flathead hardware in the US.

    While the French blocks haven’t been homologated for SCTA-BNI LSR racing, and the roadster won’t be permitted to run to improve its record, Vern and Joe look to gain some good empirical data from “time-only” runs on the “White Dyno” to be used in their on-going R&D program with the French motors. The French hardware has some unique requirements that weren’t addressed in that earlier, unsuccessful attempt by others to market the hardware in the US, and Vern and Joe have been working hard to correct the situation.

    Like several other prominent flathead record holders, SF Flatheads is hoping for homologation of the French block soon. Vern feels that with these new blocks accepted, flathead racing is going to be around for a long time after the dwindling supply of suitable old domestic ones has dried up.

    The team will be on the Salt from the beginning of Speed Week on August 10, for as long as it takes for them to learn what they need to know.

    If you’re there, stop by and say hello, and express your opinion about homologation for the French block.

    Mike
     
  2. Stovebolt
    Joined: May 2, 2001
    Posts: 3,531

    Stovebolt
    Member

    Mike please pass on the best of regards from all the Aussie HAMBers that cannot make it over there this year.

    Whilst the french motor cannot run for records, the white dyno wil surely bring about some clever ideas, those used already, and those to come.

    neat stuff.
     
  3. chuckspeed
    Joined: Sep 13, 2005
    Posts: 1,643

    chuckspeed
    Member

    Mike -

    The french flathead should be homologated - if a Russian OHV 650 M/C motor can take a speed record away from a Trump, then the base architecture which the french flattie is based on should be acceptable.

    One way (just a thought) to accomplish this is to build a pair of engines (domestic and french) and have them run the SCTA-BNI lights in the same chassis; as long as the times are within X.XX% percent (decided by SCTA) then it's an apples-to apples core comparison...pun intended.

    rock on.
     
  4. 4 port Riley
    Joined: Mar 16, 2006
    Posts: 38

    4 port Riley
    Member

    It's interesting to me, as a long time, (37 year), B-Ville participant, enterant, meet organizer, spectator, and worker about some of the silly rules that SCTA/BNI come up with. The "french" block situation is but one of them. If you look at the average age of most Bonneville participants , they are retired, over 60, (I'am 57), and act like a bunch of old women, constantly bickering and infighting. If I was trying to bulild a car on a budget, a "french" block would certainly cut costs, especially since I just went through nine 59-a blocks to find a good one for a friend. That being said , with over 500 pre-entries for this years event, I guess business is so good that they don't need to encourage newer, younger, participants, just my thoughts.
     

  5. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    The rule is to disallow replica blocks in vintage motor classes. They wouldn't really be vintage motors if new replica blocks were allowed, would they?
     
  6. Dan Warner
    Joined: Oct 25, 2004
    Posts: 557

    Dan Warner
    Member
    from so cal

    4 Port - the first thing that will have to be done is to convince the current Flathead racers that the block should be allowed. They are the ones that lobbied for exclusion. The SCTA tries very hard, sometimes successfully, to structure classes to the racers wishes. The recent addition of unneeded classes such as classic, rear engine modified roarsters, motorcycle engines in vintage bodies and a separate class for blown pickups are examples.

    Want the French block, convince the guy who doesn't have one.

    DW
     
  7. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    I think there is a place for the Blown Pickups. The rest i agree with Dan. I don't think French blocks are needed or should be allowed in XF classes. Seems to be more flatheads running now than in '53. Maybe, I'm guessing.
     
  8. Digger_Dave
    Joined: Apr 10, 2001
    Posts: 2,517

    Digger_Dave
    Member Emeritus

    Mike, it looks like a "no go"; (literally) for my attendance at Speed Week this year.

    But, if I can just make an observation.

    The interchange of virtually EVERY internal - and external part(s) - between the French engine and the original Ford engines would seem to me, as a good way to increase the supply of BLOCKS, if allowed.

    From what I have seen; - and experienced - I don't see the French engine having ANY advantages - other than being newer - over the original Ford flat head engines. And after all, weren't the French engines cast from Ford molds??

    Some might claim the blocks are tougher; but isn't that the reason Vern was always on the "hunt" for the "99" Series Ford blocks ??
     
  9. hotrodladycrusr
    Joined: Sep 20, 2002
    Posts: 20,765

    hotrodladycrusr
    Member

    Mike, I'm looking forward to seeing both you and Vern in a couple of weeks. I will stop by your pit area and say "hi".
     
  10. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    I don't see how anyone can claim the durability of the French blocks as an advantage. The strength difference between them and an OE block is minimal & everyone running any sort of serious time is running billet caps & girdles anyway, so it's nearly a moot point.

    I think it's snobbery pure & simple. It's also the attitude that will ruin them if they don't open their eyes and minds...

    Just me, and my not-so-humble opinion.... ;)

    Good luck, guys!
     
  11. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Should the SCTA allow repro "B" blocks then? Or GMCs or just flatheads. And why?
     
  12. Half the small and big chev's are after market blocks. and Donavan and keith black aluminum hemi's
     
  13. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Right. And almost all the Vintage class engines would be new repros if some started running them. Wheres the tradition in that?
     
  14. rotorwrench
    Joined: Apr 21, 2006
    Posts: 633

    rotorwrench
    Member

    I don't see anything repro about an outdated French army truck engine. It's not like a newly manufactured aluminum/steel block.
     
  15. TV
    Joined: Aug 28, 2002
    Posts: 1,451

    TV
    Member

    I don't see any reason that the French or new Banger blocks { as long as they are the same} shouldn't be allowed to compete. It's just a matter of time before they will have to allow them anyway. THINK ABOUT IT.--TV
     
  16. av8
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 1,716

    av8
    Member

    First things first, you old rascal; I'm disappointed that you won't be on the Salt this year. The North of 49 pit isn't quite complete without you.

    French blocks, other than their improved strength, owing to them being new and having a higher nickel content than domestic (read US) Ford blocks , are only marginally stouter in the center main-bearing web and the cylinder decks.

    The 99A and 99T blocks were a bit more robust than other Ford/Mercury blocks, plus they had more favorable intake port angles with the bowls closer to the cylinders on both banks.

    FWIW, some of the very best blocks I've worked on were Canadian castings.:)
    In spite of what some respected Ford experts on this board and others say about this notion being largely an old-wives tale, the dozen or so Canadian blocks I've modified and ported were every bit as hard as the new French blocks, and generally better cast than domestic Ford blocks.

    There's more to talk about on this issue, but I want to hear from some of the attackers at this point.:D

    I'll take lots of pics at Speed Week to send you, Dave.

    Mike
     
  17. Flathead Injun
    Joined: Mar 13, 2006
    Posts: 10

    Flathead Injun
    Member

    Guess what guys, SF Flatheads is not the only source of French flatheads in the good ol USA! JIMCO of Smithville, TEXAS has all you need! Give us a call @ (512) 360-5405!! Ask for Jim. I know Joe Fazio.. and he is a nice guy.. and he has a bunch of French Flatheads, BUT, not all of them! We have been doing them for customers for awhile! Ask Jimmie Vaughan how he likes his engines! Just wanted to set the record straight!!

    Jim "Flathead Injun" Cook
     
  18. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    "XF class consists of any production FORD/MERCURY passenger car V8 flathead engine, 1932 through 1953" Not Cad flathead V8s. Not Lincoln flathead V8s. And not Citroin or Pougot or what ever truck engines. Also when you look at the V4 and XO class rules it prohibites foreign made engines. This is tradition. These are the rules. They have been the rules. And we will not run out of blocks in our lifetime.
     
  19. av8
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 1,716

    av8
    Member

    We seem to have very different information on this subject. I hadn't heard that flathead racers lobbied against inclusion (homologation) of the French blocks. I do know that SCTA-BNI polled XF-class record holders and they were generally positive about homologation of the French block.

    It's been my experience that the more vocal opponents of the French blocks are folks running patched and pieced together old iron with little hope of making it to the end of the course, never mind setting a record.
     
  20. Digger_Dave
    Joined: Apr 10, 2001
    Posts: 2,517

    Digger_Dave
    Member Emeritus

    NOT to sound "snarky";

    A. That will depend on how old YOU are!

    B. At the rate usable "ORIGINAL" blocks are "drying up"; our descendants MIGHT "run out" of blocks!!

    Hell, they haven't made the "originals" - Ford / Mercs - for over 50 YEARS!!

    In MHO, if the French engine LOOKS, ACTS and SOUNDS like a flat head; then I'm in favor of allowing them.
     

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