Register now to get rid of these ads!

air fuel ratio meters ? witch one would you buy.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Casey, Jul 20, 2007.

  1. Casey
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,293

    Casey
    Member Emeritus

    I'm looking at air fuel ratio meters today to tune in carbs/motors.
    I have been looking at these.

    FAST , racing dual sensor wide band air fuel meter, that goes for about $480.00 from jeg`s, this seam`s like a neat all in one package
    part # 170472
    http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_834738_-1_10625

    INNOVATE Lm- 1. this has one sensor but you can down load it to a laptop and lay 16 graphs over each other, to see what your changes have done ? $590.00 from jeg`s with all the stuff you could need?
    part#540-3756 http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_757105_-1_10625

    has any one used any of these ?

    is one better than the other ?

    is there a better one out there ?

    are there problems with customer service or the product`s?

    thank`s for any input ! I think this tool would be a good investment , as all good tool`s, they make money, and save time! they don`t cost money:) Casey.
     
  2. johnnykck
    Joined: Dec 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,025

    johnnykck
    Member

    I have and use the LM1, it's great! Never really thought one was necessary until I got it, don't know how I ever lived with out it, makes tuning a snap!
     
  3. 54BOMB
    Joined: Oct 23, 2004
    Posts: 2,109

    54BOMB
    Member

    I used the auto meter one in one of my cars and it was helpfull, I have a friend who really digs the FAST stuff but I dont know too much about it.
     
  4. Casey
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,293

    Casey
    Member Emeritus

    yep that`s what im thinking, been guesing for to long!
     

  5. ray
    Joined: Jun 25, 2001
    Posts: 3,791

    ray
    Member
    from colorado

    i have the innovate unit too, love it!

    note that the price you quoted from jegs gets you the auxbox too, MUCH more than the basic o2 meter! with the auxbox you can datalog the amount of asspucker on the driver!:D
     
  6. FIRat
    Joined: Jul 15, 2007
    Posts: 52

    FIRat
    Member
    from MidWest

    What I know about the 02 signal is a glow plug in the sensor. The fuel will wet or cool the glow, which changes to a dropped voltage value in say, 10ths of volts is the reading? The box reads in voltage analog kind of where the box can now read how wet is the jet?
    If the box shows a rich reading, then my guess for a carb system is to jet down if the glow plug is cooling off. Does this sound like how the high dollar box works?
    Keep an eye on me. I did have a dwell post corrected on me, so I'll shake in a few injected types and correct me here as well. Goodness knows I need the help.

    Then again, where does the dual 02 combine an average if both banks of the V8 use the same single carb, or suck out of the same jets? This is where the 02 can act as if the engine has the telemetry for fuel injection, but I believe dual 02 is... well, now I'd like to know how you can change an open loop injected and change each cylinder bank of a V8 without the proper computer to understand it has 02 hooked up to the open loop computer, plus there is an adjustable factory ECM you are handcuffed out of? Or, can you tamper with an automotive OEM ECM?
     
  7. 51 MERC-CT
    Joined: Apr 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,594

    51 MERC-CT
    Member

    Suspect you don't know what a 'bung' is or where it's located.:D :)
     
  8. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    Innovative is nice but don't support Mac lap tops.

    I called 'em they were good guys but no MAC ........

    That said it is still a kick ass tool
     
  9. What if you've got zoomies ? You'd have to build another set of headers with collectors to install the sensors in wouldn't you ? Then switching back you'll have changed ex. flow & back pressure.
     
  10. $480-$590???????????????????
    Been reading plugs for 45 years, guess I'll be be doing it til I die.
     
  11. FIRat
    Joined: Jul 15, 2007
    Posts: 52

    FIRat
    Member
    from MidWest

    51 MERC, That is correct on the bung, and same goes for where it goes hiding in said location. Haven't the foggiest???
    Short of spending $500 for an 02 in a box, where buying a box or 2 of plugs and sorting out the fuel ratio the old fashioned way, why would I waste my time on a non-fuel injected engine.
    I could keep the zoomies (another part where who knows what it does or where the zoomie goes?... I wouldn't change the zoomie for a jet change, or would find the 02 in the way if installed.... What say ye?
     
  12. ray
    Joined: Jun 25, 2001
    Posts: 3,791

    ray
    Member
    from colorado

    the price is actually much closer to $300. HRA quoted a price from a much more inclusive model. not exactly dirt cheap, but WELL worth it. seems everybody starts a skeptic until they actually try using one.

    let's say you drive 20,000 miles a year. your hot rod gets ten MPG(a "little rich" you say to your buddies). so you buy the o2 meter, and improve your mileage to 15 MPG, a very achievable gain, i've seen even bigger gains myself. you just saved yourself $1000 worth of $3/gallon gas. odds are you'll make your car quicker too.

    i know i'm gonna sound like a commercial here, but the wideband o2 meter really is a great tool. unlike reading sparkplugs, you get an exact measurement in REAL TIME. the old style narrow band sensors don't even compare. so driving down the road, you can easily monitor how rich/lean you are running, you'll know your mixture from idle, to tip in, to WOT, no worrying about a clean shutoff to read the plugs. you "see" situations you otherwise have no idea exist. for example, we've all heard not to run carbs without an air cleaner because the air cleaner helps direct the air into the carb, well when you watch the o2 meter, you see your air/fuel ratio rapidly bounce from very lean to very rich when you remove the air cleaner.

    on the zoomies, they have a probe that you can stick in any exhaust pipe, no need to weld in a bung. so you can easily switch from cylinder to cylinder.
     
  13. brownbagg
    Joined: Jul 26, 2006
    Posts: 116

    brownbagg
    Member
    from grand bay

    I have saw on the net where you can make your own air meter with an old o2 sensor and some radio shack parts, under $50
     
  14. FIRat
    Joined: Jul 15, 2007
    Posts: 52

    FIRat
    Member
    from MidWest

    OK, The zoomie is the sniffer and the bung is the 02, Thank you. Could you please explain where if you remove the A/C, the fuel runs rich? I would think less air restriction would restrict less air into the cylinder and bypass pulling fuel out of the jet; where the A/C element would restrict the air and more fuel would be pulled out; as in a dirty air cleaner running rich.... i.e., pulling fuel out of the jets to compensate for no air to equalize the vacuum pressures on the intake stroke.

    How does the theory of rich with no A/C work if a dirty element runs rich? Can both run rich, ray?:confused:
     
  15. scottybaccus
    Joined: Mar 13, 2006
    Posts: 4,109

    scottybaccus
    Member

    sure they can. Clogged element can cause a choke effect where extra fuel is draw in by vaccume alone. Air cleaner removed can allow enough air density increase to make more efficient venturi effect draw more fuel.

    If you run zoomies, you should consider a full set EGT monitor. Just as useful as O2 sensors.
     
  16. FIRat
    Joined: Jul 15, 2007
    Posts: 52

    FIRat
    Member
    from MidWest

    Is not the air density the same inside the air cleaner as it is outside before it was sucked thru the clean element? Can a dirty air cleaner change the atmosphere where there is less density of the air?
    Does not the cylinder only use what is dense and vacuumed out of the jet in a proportion to speed of the air, meaning, a restriction rather than same density of air outside is equal, or the air burns the same amount of fuel more efficiently with more air?

    Is not the rush thru the (venturi), vacuum a constant; where if you pulled the element off; would the vacuum change the constant vacuum over the jet hole?
     
  17. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    Don't sit on a running motor and fart........
     
  18. 51 MERC-CT
    Joined: Apr 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,594

    51 MERC-CT
    Member

    With a one wire O2 sensor and a digital volt meter you can get a reasonably close A/F ratio reading. This is a chart that gives the relationship between them.:) :D

    [​IMG]
     
  19. skajaquada
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 1,642

    skajaquada
    Member
    from SLC Utard

    hmmm...so 750 mv is about primo it looks like.

    i have been looking at the holley and edelbrock units at around $150 for the meter and wideband sensor. who wants to log all that stuff? if it's in the right spot on the meter through the fuel curve, all is well:p
     
  20. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,730

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    One of the worse things is turbulance without an air cleaner. Well that and shit getting in your engine. The right air cleaner can make power, or at least keep you from losing power. That's one of the great things about these meters, you can ride down the road and tell what your engine is doing.
     
  21. Casey
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,293

    Casey
    Member Emeritus

    so what you are saying is I sould inclued more bran in to my diet ?
     
  22. FIRat
    Joined: Jul 15, 2007
    Posts: 52

    FIRat
    Member
    from MidWest

    Two brains are better than using the few brain cells I have left.
    Brain on a diet is asking if someone would mask half an air cleaner off, so the 02 can register a fat dirty air cleaner. Sustain throttle and report numbers.
    Remove the cover off the element, so now you sustain the base run of a clean element with perfect flow of said a/c element and it's flow per minute/second/hour rating as opposed to half wrapped.
    Sustain an air cleaner without the element and what is that number in the sustained mph?
    3 restrictions removed and where is there more fuel as the element goes from a dirty rich (less air) into the venturi, as opposed to the standard a/c element, then where is there a fuel to rich when the element is missing and all there is at the carb opening is the same atmospheric weather conditions for that test day.

    If all you touched were 3 air flow characteristics, how could the fuel change with just the air cleaner removed? You touched no jet diameter to increase a richer setting. Why would the meter turn rich if the throttle up is in the open atmosphere?
    Does the meter mean rich, because the foot is more into the throttle? Is not the meter almost going into an open loop rich mode when it reads engine spin at a faster with your foot in it?
     
  23. scottybaccus
    Joined: Mar 13, 2006
    Posts: 4,109

    scottybaccus
    Member

    Air density is directly related to pressure. Every restriction causes a drop in pressure and therefore density. To take the idea to the extreme, if you had a carb at 100,000 feet altitude, the air density would be so low that you would have to draw many times the rated air flow through a carb to achieve enough velocity in the venturi for it to work.
    Any engine at a set rpm will only move X cfm. If the air density is lower, then less air is moved in that same cubic feet. Without the additional mass, there is not as much displacement to create the vaccume, so less fuel is drawn. It is not proportional, so we see engines tuned at sea level run rich at altitude.
    There are still two ways to run rich: Less air = restrictive intake path, or increased venturi effect of reduced intake restriction. Years of research have gone into designing the right air flow for carbs and it all went out the window with EFI. Now they just use long runners from a moderately sized plenum to straighten and smooth the air and squirt the fuel in at the right time and place.
    If you want the right combination, look for smooth air flow through a good filter and then tune to that. Someone else may have the same engine combo with a different air intake design and will need to adjust their tune to hit the peak on that.
     
  24. FIRat
    Joined: Jul 15, 2007
    Posts: 52

    FIRat
    Member
    from MidWest

    I would think the cylinder per volume is fixed. I would think that on a cold day, the fix is in and the proportion is even for that temp. Come summer, no jet change for the heat of the day, but in proportion, no one is going off the side of the road, popping the hood, changing jets for the density of the day is <(kind of joking there with the air, but not really if the head is ported = meaning, you're in trouble by the side of the road if it's not a stock off the show room floor). The proportion to air to carb fuel is set again in, "The Proportion." you might say, and let's say it is for arguments sake.
    Please explain the proportion. I am not an engineer, nor have the correct terminology for the text. I will need to be corrected both is theory and the terms used. I'm on a learning curve with this air stuff.
    Thanks for helping out, Scotty. I'm going to attempt to add a few things to the variable of the moving air, "X cfm."
    1. If you turbo a FI engine, and you do not change anything, will that extra "cfm" or per minute is now in the millisecond? Is nano in the electric speed and not air speed? This is the tech word confusion I have and would have to look up who is faster in speed. Mili sounds slower, so, for argument sake in the slow term of the turbo loading the air pressure into the cylinder, means to me; that there is more air introduced than was designed for the FI fuel quantity flow in proportion to fuel and it's normally aspirated air flow. What happens to that jetting?
    Does that mean that you have to recalibrate for more fuel, or do you let the telemetry work the pressures against the sensors? Or does that mean what you are saying, Scotty about the density does not need the fuel because there is more density with the turbo packing the cylinder with more density that no more fuel is needed?

    Is not FI a set metered fuel system controlled by the map, or grid system to regulate the final fuel spray to said cylinder?
    Would not the turbo lean out the ECM and the preset that is designed into the ECM?
    How do I rejet for a turbo? Or, do I not touch the fuel system with the aftermarket black boxes and are they some sort of helper? How can a black box help an ECM if the OEM factory black box cannot be tampered with to reset the fuel grid<(correct term?) or map system <(means the same term?).

    Artist, how goes the diet? Just trying to help with the decision making between the black box, and someone that posted they will keep reading plugs out of their own boxes to judge the fuel metering. Couple of choices I'm struggling down to a still pricey $300 worth of plugs I could read with, say, half a box of plugs and a whatever $ Champion Spark Plug Flashlight reader, (sitting in the tool box top drawer)?
     
  25. Casey
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,293

    Casey
    Member Emeritus

    thank`s for your input FIRat, and everyone else ! I think the LM-1 is the way to go?
    set it up the way your going to run it ! with a clean air filter , ass clear ,drive it hard , and see where your at .

    see what each change dose for better or worse! timing/ jet`s / idle/ midrange/ top end ?

    I read a plug once it said "split fire"!

    it`s a map to a better running motor. any more thought`s out there ? Im looking at it for multiple carb`s not fuel injection.

    ps FIRat you made my head hurt and I threw out a pun? but we could all use a little bran, shit!..hahaha... later bud Casey.;)
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.