Oil w/ Zinc content recommended for older engines

I totally agree. Thanks again for the info, Scott.... as well as others.
This is a subject I am always interested in.

Who woulda thought there is THAT much difference in all of these oils!?

 

i use valvoline racing and lucas also

 

Here is a paste of the reply I got this morning from the engineer who works on oil formulation at Ashland (Valvoline,) when I asked him about zinc and the current state of oil in old cars. Notice his opinion not to use synthetic oil:

"Zinc is an anti-wear which has been reduced, but other anti-wear agents in the friction modifier package make up for it. If you are using a good quality base oil, you shouldn't have any problems. For break in and normal use, avoid using a synthetic product in older cars. The reason is because there may be some issues with seal compatibility. Older seal technology was different and works better with mineral based oils."

-scott noteboom

 

"Zinc is an anti-wear which has been reduced, but other anti-wear agents in the friction modifier package make up for it. If you are using a good quality base oil, you shouldn't have any problems. For break in and normal use, avoid using a synthetic product in older cars. The reason is because there may be some issues with seal compatibility. Older seal technology was different and works better with mineral based oils."

That is a condensed version of the info provided in the October, 2006 issue of Skinned Knuckles magazine after they looked at API study results and talked with oil industry scientists, ect. The specs were changed in 2004 and thousands and thousands of engines with flat tappets have drived millions of miles in the last couple of years with oil made with the latest SM specs without problems. Part of the API testing includes actual running test procedures using engines with flat tappets and they found those engines showed no more wear than they did with the former SL oils.

I still believe all the flap about the reformulated oil is reminiscent of the scare a few years ago over the removal of lead from gasoline and how valves & valve seats would soon be ruined.........

 

This is the info that I have come up with after talking to a couple of oil company's reps. The guy at chevron made it most easily to understand so I'll try to repeat what he said.
Diesel engine oils still contain ZDDP (zinc) just at lower levels than before due to new emission laws that go into effect for 2007 model diesel engines. He went on to say that they are aware of the need of higher levels of ZDDP (zinc) in engine oils for older engines (diesel & gasoline), so they will continue to produce a oil that contains the level of ZDDP (zinc) that is needed. The oil to buy is chevron delo 400 15W40 with a API CI-4 Plus rating, it still contains enough ZDDP (zinc), be carfull to pay attention to the API rating the newer oils with less ZDDP (zinc) have a CJ-4 rating not the CI-4 Plus rating! CI-4 Good, CJ-4 BAD!!
He went on to say that the CJ-4 oils will also do a good job of protecting older engines, but the higher ZDDP (zinc) content of older CI-40 Plus oils will protect better in extreme conditions and during cam break in.

He also admitted that this also applies to other oil brands, CI-4 or CI-4 Plus oils of any brand are likely to contain more ZDDP (zinc) than the newer CJ-4 rated oils.

I hope this clears thing up a bit, it did for me.
Remember CI-4 Plus Good, CJ-4 Bad!! Also the newer oils will often have a LE added to their name such as Delo 400 LE, the LE stands for Low Emission and this is the CJ-4 rated, low ZDDP (zinc), oil.
Not the one you want.

 

Oh one more thing, at the beginning Scott had said that oil needs at least .11% zinc as a minimum requirement. I agree, the way to find out how much zinc (ZDDP) a certain oil contains is to look up it's MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) it will in most casses contain the amount of zinc in a given oil.
Brad Penn racing oil 10W30 = 0.113% zinc or 1.13% zinc compound
Brad Penn racing oil 20W50 = 0.14% zinc or 1.4% zinc compound
Brad Penn 15W40 diesel oil = 0.14% zinc or 1.4% zinc compound
Brad Penn Break in oil= 0.14% zinc or 1.4% zinc compound

Chevron Delo 400 15W40 CI-4 Plus =0.148% or 1.48% zinc compound.
So I will stick with Chevron Delo 400 15W40 CI-4 Plus, it's got enough of the good stuff and I can get it at the local store.

 

cool info. thanks johnny.

bottom good line is that we can still find decent oil locally at the auto parts store... hopefully it stays that way.

-scott noteboom

 

Hey Scott,
Thanx to you for bringing up this subject, maybe this info will keep a couple of the older engines alive a lot longer, wich is what all of us want!

 

I am also a big fan of the GM additive. Some oldtimers call it "break-in additive".

 

CI is better than CJ, but what are the specs on the two. How does CJ compare to car oil?

 

The specs for CI and CJ are noted just a few posts back, at least for the chevron delo oils. To your second question, car oils have a lot less additives, at least the modern over the counter type, they have to comply with even strickter emission laws. You need a lot beefier additiv package in a diesel oil than you do in a gasolene engine oil because the way diesel engines are designed. They run alot higher compression inorder to ignite the fuel in the combustion chamber, so basically you could say they are always pinging (for lack of a better term) so they need much heavier pistons wich inturn puts more strain on bearings and so on, plus diesel engines produce more torque at lower RPM's wich again puts a lot of strain on bearings and other parts. You get the picture.

You can tell the difference between a diesel oil and a gasolene oil by the rating sytem on the bottle, a diesel oil will have CH,CI or CJ and a gasolene oil will have SG,SH,SI,or such. The point is the C stands for Compression ignition (as diesel engine do) and the S stands for Spark ignition (as in gasolene powered engines). Some oils have "C" and "S" rating on them, in fact most diesel oils do. Few gasolene oils do and if they do they will qualify only as a light duty diesel engine oil, for diesel powered cars and small trucks. So in my opinion always go with a Diesel Truck engine oil, Because a good oil can't protect your engine to much, can it? But a inferior oil may not protect your engine enough!

 

in a nut shell, the best words spoken thus far.

we dump hundreds if not thousands of hard earned dollars into the mill, why piss around with corner convieniance mart store brand oil for a few bucks less, when it comes time to keepin parts slippery

i gotta say, i learned a LOT more about oil and additives, synthetic or organic based than i thought i cared to, but man i'm SURE as hell glad i did

many thanks for all the amazing information. great thread, PERIOD

T

 

What about Royal Purple, It works great in industrial machinery so it is all I have used in a 70's era 454 since break in. Castol GTX during break in.

 

I followed all that between this & an earlier thread. I just hadn't seen numbers that show how big the reduction between CI & CJ oil was.

 

This was last year anyone have any updates on what to use.

 

I wish you could search "oil" here...maybe try searching for "diesel" or "zddp" - there have been at least two very long threads about this in the past couple of months...

 

The CJ oil is on the shelves!

 

just bought 2 bottles for a assembly on my little blown 355 gernade...was 13bucks and change......brandon

 

Does anybody know if the Rotella oil has been "re-formulated" yet
to remove the ZDDP ?

 

Yes it has. It carries API rating of CJ. Some folks seem to be able to find old stocks of the CI-4/CI-4+, but there's none local to me - hasn't been for a long time either.

 

Yes, as part of "responsible emissions," zddp (zinc / phosphate) additive has been largely removed (and replaced w/ Boron, which wont work well w/ US gas) in the new Rotella you see on the shelf-- as well as pretty much all diesel oil you used to get it in. The new API guideline states that zddp must be below .08% (800ppm)-- and many oil companies that are following this rule will go to .05% (500ppm.)

Most believe that an acceptable zddp range needs to be at least .11% (1100ppm) for proper anti-wear capacities to be reliatble for an older (i.e. flat tappet) engine.

Right now the only *common, off the shelf* oil (stuff i can find at a regular auto parts store and doesnt cost fucking $8 a quart) that i'm able to get with the right level of zddp is Valvoline VR-1. I believe it has .13 (1300 ppm) ZDDP. It also should be under $4 a quart, which is much more affordable than most places that sell Brad Penn and other acceptable "boutique" oil.

BTW: I think the only way companies can get away with having the right ZDDP nowadays is to call their oil "Racing Oil," meaning not legal for street use-- thus they dont have to follow the new API guidelines.

-scott noteboom

 

Scott - read the label on your VR-1 carefully. Unless it says "for offroad use only" on the label, it's repackaged regular Valvoline. If it has an API circle, it's probably repackaged regular.

I've yet to find the "offroad use only" VR-1 in the big box stores...

 

Didnt know that they had a API (bad) version of VR-1. Confusing :-(

That said, i fortunately got the right stuff at our local Napa store. And, yeah, it's noted for offroad use only (not API compliant.)

Thanks for this info though. The manufacturers sure dont make this easy for us...

-scott noteboom

 

Since G.M. no longer has ESO I've switched to Comp Cams Break In Oil Additive Part # 159. Essentially the same stuff.

 

Seal compatability aside, I'd like to see some info on whether or not a good synthetic will negate the need for zink. Since it is a better lubricant, why would it need added minerals to "cushion" the lifter on a street cam?

 

Wal-Mart store brand 15W-40 is still available here in CI-4. I noticed that they have some qts of Accel brand 10W-40 with an SF rating that says for pre 1988 cars only. Anyone heard of this stuff? Sounds like it should still have the ZDDP.

 

I love this. It's actually ironic when you think about it a bit.

In the old days (pre-non-ZDDP oil), most folks would never dream of putting no-name oil in their vehicles despite experts telling us it was all about the same & only additive packages varied significantly between manufacturers.

Now folk are looking for additive packages & don't give a damn what the label says.

 

WHAT?? no straight up 30 weight in the list??

 

Thanks for that. Valvoline Race has been my choice for many years

 

You can go to the Valvoline website and look at the data sheet (MSDS) for the VR-1 oils and on them you will find the ZDDP levels for the VR-1 oils, ZDDP is in the 1300ppm range and it is labeled for off road use only.