i need a stright anwser about oil...

i have looked for a lot of talk on the oil/zinc thing, what is the final anwser on oil for older engines....

 

When I built my last motor I called all of the machine shops around to find out an answer to this rumor. It is true that the oil has little to no zinc in it and thier reply was to break the motor in on Rotella Diesel oil. It is the only oil that still has the higher zinc content. They did tell me though after break in to just go to what ever oil I wanted to use. The reason the oil companies are going to lower zinc content is because one it is cheaper and two all of the engines produced nowdays all have roller cams and do not need the zinc to help with wear on the flat tappet cams of older vehicles. All in all it means we are screwed unless we start building roller motors. Hope this helps.

 

I run the diesel oil all the time in my flathead. It suspends more particles of dirt in it and keeps the sludege buildup down in the engine.
Butch

 

The oil companies have phased zinc out of their automotive engines to reduce emissions, and because modern roller tappet engines don't need all the zinc. You will find that diesel truck oils like Shell Rotela T do still contain a good amount of zinc, but not for long, as the emissions constrainsts on the trucking industry are also tightening. A good alternative is Valvoline Racing oil, this oil contains an extremely high level of zinc so it's perfect to run in older flat tappet type engines.

Here's a good link to bone up on your oil knowledge.

http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html

 

Royal Purple works as well, but I too use Rotella T. I lost a Motor in 100 miles a couple of months ago, I think due to the lack of Zinc crap.

 

Get some GM EOS(Engine Oil Supliment) from teh localk GM place and add a bottle with every oil change. The EOS contains all the stuff that's been taken out of oils recently(even diesel oils)

 

EOS isn't intended as an additive, only as a break in suppliment. I'd be afraid of plugging the filter with constant use of that product. I checked with my machinist, he said most of the problem with the whole "it's the lack of zinc in the oil causing cam failures" to be just the cam companies not wanting to fess up to putting out bad product. You have to remember that oil is required to be able to meet or exeed the prevois designation. That's a federal requirement. If they took out zinc because of emmisions, you can bet that they've put something else in that does the same job. something else to consider-everyone says that it's because "all new cars have roller cams" and that "the oils companies don'tare about people with flat tappets". If that was the case, then why haven't we seen massive failures of flat tappet engines? I'm not talking rod engines, but normal 100000+ mile daily drivers. If the oil was really the issue, we would be seeing alot more engine failures.

 

The renamed it as a break in supplement. Same stuff....

A. It was renamed from a supplement to a break in additive to satisfy the suits and the gov.

B. Yes it's a federal requirement, again that's why it was renamed to merely be for a supplement....

C. We see lot's of failures of 100k drivers, most people tend to blame it on the 100k+ miles... it's the most important in break in. Besides the fact that valve geometry is a lot better in a modern 4 banger than it is in an old pushrod V8...

 

Alf and Zman are correct.
Alf's oil link is OK to read but, some of the oil content figures have changed since then('99) Oils are changing so fast it is hard to keep up with.
EOS is no problem for oil filters. Napa/Wix are about the best filters for the money. K&N and Mobil 1 oil filters are good too but, big bucks.
Catylitic converters don't like zinc that's another reason that zinc goin' away.
True racing oils have additives that break down faster than street oils and should be changed more often.
Valvoline VR1 ( approx $3.10 a Qt.)is not a true racing oil. It does have API ratings. It does work great with EOS for street performance none roller cam engines.
Valvoline Racing is about twice the cost of VR1 and says "For racing use only" and does not have API ratings Smokey

 

perhaps there was a misunderstanding in what I meant to say. I meant to say that the motor oil itself is required to meet or exeed the previous service designation. I do not believe that the oil itself is the cause of the cam/engine failures that have been reported. If proper break in is done, using EOS or other additive for broper break in, then after there shouldn't be an issue.
As far as using EOS on a regular basis as an additive, I've been told not to do it. It's not meant to be used that way.
If it was the oil alone that's causing the problem, like the cam makers want us to think, than i would think that we would be seeing massive failures of older flat tappet engines, regardless of mileage. There's alot of '88-'98 Silveradoes out there with flat tappet 350s in them, i havent seen any cam failures in them due to the oil.
Like i said, the machinist (over 50 years doing it) told me it has to be faulty cams. Incorrect alloys or finishing of the manufacturing is most likely the culprit, not the oil.
I've been running regular Valvoline in my own engines, and we use Castrol at work, we haven't had the first engine come back with any cam failures due to the removal of zinc from the oil.

 

Nope....

Read my reply again... reading is fundamental... Break in is the most important part... after that it's not as much of a deal.

It was developed as an additive and does a great job as that... You were told wrong.. I guess that ASE certification isn't helping you right now...

What kind of spring pressure are those Silverado's running? Probably not near what a hopped up engine would be? And aren't those Silverados broken in?

Uhhhh... use the search function, this has been gone over a lot. I'm not saying that there aren't bad cams out there, but it's not just a particular manufacturer.. Highly unlikely that you machinist is right.

Have you broken in a new engine on it? Have you even built an engine? Go back to putting batteries in at Sears...

 

wow! I just put a new rebuild motor 350 in my truck .I got about 100 miles less then 20 pound driving and close to 1 at the stop light..The builder never told me about oil ..

 

Well, that's not vey nice!
I kid, I kid. I was only giving my opnion on the subject and relaying waht i had found by asking around locally. perhaps the older cams are more sensitive to the removal of zinc. I'll also admit that I did not know that EOS was originally intended as a regular use suppliment, I guess you learn new stuff all the time.
The only reason that i used the late model Chevy truck as an example is that it's the latest vehicle I know of that still used a flat tappet cam.
And yes, I have broken in new engines on Valvoline, 1 350 in an '88 Sliverado (engine failed due to too much short distance driving) and a 2.8 V6 (engine failed due to moron driver ).
I also built the 235 in my '55 Chevy truck, broke in on 30 wt Valvoline and a bottle of EOS. Been running on 30wt Valvoline since with no issues.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but I will do the search you suggest. More knowlege doesn't hurt.
Oh, and I'm not the battery boy, I'm the brake and alignment specialist.

 

wtf are you talking about?

 

Hey Longbox,
The last thing that I want to do is piss somebody off.
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding in what I'm sayin' also. I have a hard time puttin' my thoughts into print. After I read my stuff I think of other things that should have been said and it takes me a long time to type.
I'm a cylinder head guy in a race engine shop.
Valvoline and Castrol are good oils and are fine for stock type non roller cam spring pressures like you are talkin' about. If you were using lesser quality oils for longer times between oil changes you may see more problems.
What I'm sayin' is with performance flat tappet cams with 100-120+lbs of spring pressure closed and 250-275+lbs open the lack of zinc becomes a problem.
The newer engines that still use non roller cams have small light valves and light spring pressures.
Yes there are other things in the oil to take the place of zinc but, they don't work as good as zinc when the pressure gets higher.
Smokey

 

See it takes me so long to type I missed posts number 11,12,13 and 14

 

Gotcha. I guess I went on a rant because I'm hearing the same thing, but with stock springs/valvetrain with a relatively mild cam. With a hot cam and high spring pressures, I can see an issue.
I ain't pissed off, even with a little razzin'.

 

Don't ya hate when that happens?
hey, how about synthetics? There's a post about Royal Purple, which I saw another post say it wasn't as good as they say. What about some of the others? Or maybe Lucas?

 

See what the oil nerds have to say about it.....http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

 

Hi all, I have a 1999 Lincoln Town car with 75,000 miles. What oil should I use?

 

These guy's have somethings to say about it. http://www.svmgcc.org/tech_tips/oil_is_killing.htm

 

Talking oil with gearheads is like talking religion & politics with normal people.

For 2007, the diesel oils (Rotella & Delo - two most common ones) have reduced zinc. Look for CI-4 & CI-4+ ratings on the diesels to get the higher zinc - the new stuff is rated CJ-4 & has reduced zddp levels.

Hard to search here for "oil" because it won't search 3-letter strings. But it's been beaten to death here as well as most auto forums.

As for who to believe in this whole discussion - look for high-volume engine builders who focus on hi-po type engines. Your local mechanic, despite having done it for 50 years, is probably a bad source believe it or not. Brand loyalty defies explanation.

One other thing that isn't mentioned as much - the reduced zddp does affect viscosity stabilization. In other words, your multi-weight oils will tend to thin out quite a bit when hot. One of the back-to-back things I did when I switched my flathead over to CI-4 Delo was note the hot idle oil pressure had increased by several pounds.

Just some more fuel for the debate...

 

Are you saying we can't just look for Delo? But look for CI-4 only and pass if it says CJ-4?

 

Yep. CJ-4 is the new rating for the Low-Emissions Diesel oils & has reduced levels of zddp...

 

what about castrols 75k+ mile oil that comes in the green bottle. Any idea what makes it different from their other oil?

 

Marketing.

 

What ever is commonly available, cheap and the correct weight for the car (see owners manual). Your car has a Ford 4.6 SOHC Modular V8 (essentially the same engine as a same year Mustang GT). They have roller cam followers and don't need the zinc to run forever. No worries for that car about oil.

 

My motor/machinist guy with about 50 years of experience in old motors both racing and street told me to use non synthetic racing oils for the zinc. My choice has been Valvoline racing oil and the little extra change for a quart of oil is worth it to me. He also told me to break it in correctly using different RPM's while drivibg and not a constant rpm like driving down the freeway. All in all his advice has worked for me. Good thread !!!

 

oi vey...

so, I am going to be breaking in my 383 soon. Right now we have high performance 76 oil in it. Guess I need to find out if it will be ok or not.

 

here's a link from the mid 90's showing the break down of oils, but those numbers should have all changed by now but anyways I noticed the race oil from valvoline had a much higher % of zinc so I decided to look into it more.

old oil faq
http://www.off-road.com/RoverWeb/OilFAQ.html

normal valvoline zinc is listed as .083/.076? same as max life btw
http://www.valvoline.com/products/All-Climate.pdf

valvoline race oil zinc .12%
http://www.valvoline.com/products/Specialty Racing Oils.pdf

none of the castrol or shell products list zinc % they use, not sure if they'll tell you if you call.