Maybe O/T: Is Detroit dead?

i'm not giving up that easily. i still hope we can turn it around for everyones sake.

 

yer not wrong. it's hard for people on the outside to understand some of the things a person has to deal with in a large manufacturing company. it's not for everyone and it can be very hard on a person mentaly and physicaly. i'm talkin trades and line workers. it's not all roses and fat paychecks let me tell you and it never has been in the nearly 10 years i've been there.

 

If Congress put a 10% tarriff on imported goods, and used that money to rebuild social security, we'd be fine. Simple plan, right? Cost of imported goods goes up, outsourcing costs go up, jobs stay here. Too bad people keep voting for CEO governments.

 

i don't believe it is the only problem but i do think that it is a HUGE part of it. but us as consumers let them do it. if we did our best (and it is'nt easy with so much made overseas) not to buy stuff made in China and other contries whos work force our big businesses are "exploiting", then maybe we could bring some of those jobs back. it sure won't be easy though. if we'd followed the "Buy American" slogans 20 years ago MAYBE we would'nt be in such a mess now.

 

my point exactly and my biggest pet peeve next to outsourcing to 3rd world countries.

 

boy do i agree. i'm as quilty as anyone (on a small scale) of that but i have made a conscious effort as of late to stop doing that. i dont' own alot of Chinese tools cause i'm kind of a stickler for quality and they just don't have it, that i've seen.

 

Fortunately, after Habeeb fucks up there system worse than before they called, they have to call a real technician to fix it and that's where I come in. I probably handle 1-2 calls per day from people who couldn't get the results they wanted from the foreign call center at Dell, HP, Gateway, etc.

I used to manage a few service centers for Gateway computers before they decided that they couldn't make any money having local stores. People don't want to ship there systems out and be without them for a week or better only to find that the guy in India or Hong Kong making $2/day doesn't know how to fix it right. So for right now at least I still have an okay income.

Being pretty much the first man in my family not to work for GM, I have seen it change from my Grandpa's time (in at 18-20, retire when you felt like it, be pretty set for the duration) to my uncle's time (work a few weeks, get bumped due to only having 21yrs seniority, lay-off, back to work, benefit cut, repeat). The thing is I have a lot of trouble feeling sorry for them. Why should someone who works on the line have a salary double mine and great full benefits when I can't even afford insurance for my family? I have toured a few of the plants and I know that most of line jobs might be tedious and it does get warm in there, but I call bullshit on anyone who says it is a hard job. I am not trying to knock anyone who works in the shop or manufacturing, but things have gotten a little out of hand. When Delphi was talking about having to cut pay down to like $18/hr and everyone was freaking the fuck out... come on. $18/hr is pretty good money.

I really hope that Detroit can turn it around. More so I hope Flint can. Do I see it happening??? I guess I have to believe it will or I might is well start looking for a better place to relocate my family.

 

i do not disagree with that plan. it sounds good but almost too easy. whats the catch???

 

As a long time mechanic, I have had experience with a lot of vehicles both foreign and domestic. The Big 3 had to change and adapt to compete with the Asian car manufacturer in the mid 80s, and now they are once again faced with the same scenario, albeit on a much more drastic scale. Let's face it, the reason people jumped to Toyota, Honda, etc.. in the late 80's, was that the the quality of the Big 3's products were seriously lacking. In fact, a lot of them were just plain crap. They started rebounding in the early 90s but toward the latter part of the decade they went back down the toilet.
People were getting sick of bad transmissions, leaking intake and head gaskets, etc... Problems that the manufacturers were well aware of, but never fixed or addressed. Look at 3100 and 3400 GM head and intake gaskets, leaking and exploding 3800 intake manifolds, oil burning Saturn engines(factory said 1 quart in 400 miles was "acceptable"),GM truck transmissions, Chrysler transmissions and 2.7 engines, Ford transmissions and head problems. These problems went on for almost a decade, and are still going on. One customer put 4 trannys in his Intrepid before giving me the car for free and buying a Camry.
A lot of the bad press on the Big 3 has to do with fuel mileage. All of a sudden everyone wanted 2 trucks or SUVs in their driveways. Which was great for business, but everytime fuel prices jump more and more people unload them and buy a smaller, more economical car (usually an import). My neighbor sold his Excursion during the last jump and bought a Civic. The resale on and import is usually much higher than the comparable domestic.
I hope they can turn it around, I really do. I have never owned a Japanese car, but a new Camry sure looks tempting. Plus, more of it's parts were manufactured in America, by Americans than any of the other cars I've been looking at.

 

The taxes collected are supposed to go to road building and repair which helps support local economies with good construction jobs, building material sales, heavy equipment sales and repairs, etc. etc.... I don't have a problem paying taxes as long as they are used to build and maintain the infrastructure in this great country. Politicians are our servants - stay informed on whats going on and VOTE them out if they don't serve the working people of this country. When the oil companies are making BILLIONS because of predatory manipulation of supply, they need to be regulated to increase competition.

 

Yeah, buddy!

along the same lines...

What steps are each of you taking to stop the slide? Buying US made goods is a start...

How many jobs have you helped save? Are you trying?

While I appreciate the sentiment re: looking out for for your family (you have to), think about how much better things could be if you tried to help save a job or two.

 

why do corporations ship manufacturing jobs overseas where workers are treated like crap? Even with tax breaks it doesn't save them that much money, given transportation costs, etc. They do it to bust unions. When all of the unions are broken and they have a free hand to treat US like crap, they'll bring the jobs back (probably about the same time those overseas guys start forming their own unions...)

 

What steps are each of you taking to stop the slide? Buying US made goods is a start...

I know I'll catch crap for this one but I disagree with the buy american logo. For one thing that discourages the betterment of the product, do you really think the CEO's are going to make things better for you cause they like you. They need lack of sales to change direction, and while we are waiting for something good to finnaly come out we are supposed to buy inferior crap so they can continue to make huge profit themselves. Bullshit it's time this manufacturing powerhouse we still live in eliminates the marketing plans that tell you how good stuff is and replaces it with a serious effort to actually improve and surpass the competition. Maybe it is more costly to re tool and develop engineering plans than throw a media blitz on the population but I think finally the american buying public has finally seen through the hype and is now looking to make their hard earned dollar go a little farther. And this is from a guy who has spent 30 + years as a manufacturing engineer and still has 8 more till retirement. By the way i bought my last detroit car 8 years ago and switched to honda, so far have owned two and neither has been back to the dealer for anything. Compared to my last two Quality Job 1 Fords that had so many problems I couldn't wait to get rid of those expensive trucks. The only way to get US companies to improve and grow is by not buying untill they have made the better product.

 

I'm trying to create jobs, here, in my desire to build and market teardrop campers. My local economic development council shot down my small business loan due to my income over the last few years. Between my ex leaving me with a ton of debt and a slow economy topped by a string of piss-poor winters (this is greatly a recreational area and with no snow the last few years, everything I make during the summer dissolves by spring) things have gotten pretty crappy.
I'm proposing making my business better, providing jobs and bolstering the local economy and they shot me down.

JOE

 

That's all true, but it's a two-sided coin... as per my statement above with regard to unions. If companies weren't compelled to "fight" their workers, and if the two worked together and kept the money in the business, the company, and subsequently, the worker would flourish...

Trim both ends... it's the only way...

Workers and corporate execs both need to get off the fat wagon and let the money stay in the company...

Going on strike when they cut your pay doesn't do anyone a shit bit of good.... but at the same time, when the mahogany row exec rolls up in a car that cost more than the average worker makes in two years, it's impossible to justify...

If the H.A.M.B. party wants to nominate me to run for President, I'll fix this fuckin' shit...
... and just so it doesn't come up in my impeachment hearing later on.... I inhaled...



JOE

 

The big 3 have had 30 years to build a better product that even comes CLOSE to the quality of the jap stuff...didn't happen.....now it's too late. Adios big 3....adios michigan employment. The truth hurts.

 

True. I work in a Buick/Chevrolet dealership, and every day I get to see the brake systems that wear out and/or rot away prematurely. It's pretty sad when the chineese rotors you buy in Advance Auto outlast the O.E.M. rotors. I don't know what sort of pressed dogshit the big three are making their brake parts out of, but my friends in Ford and Chrysler dealerships tell me that they're in the same boat as G.M. My brother is on his third Toyota truck, and has had zero quality or material problems with them. He bought Chevy trucks for years, then two new Ford trucks, and now Toyota. If american carmakers want us to sink money into their new products, they need to make them worth what they're asking--and this is coming from someone who's never owned a foreign car in his life. $40,000 trucks that need a complete brake system rebuild once a year are not going to revive Detroit.

 

Trim both ends... it's the only way...

I'll buy that, I never was much of a Union guy always hated having someone tell me what I am worth, but as I got older and saw first hand how some workers are treated I have softened my approach to unionization. For the life of me I don't understand how some folks in the suits can think they are worth so much, our company president made $4M last year, the CEO 15M for what, it seems all they do is push to make sure everyone is doing more with less. Our company sales a few years ago were averaging 25 Million a month, now it's 48 million for the goal, guess what we added marketing and accounting folks but no more engineers or very few production workers but overtime is at an all time high, and it is expected you work a minimum of 6 days a week even if you don't get paid for it, or your not a team player and subject to layoff when a down turn comes....... Nobody is worth what the CEO's are paying themselves if you look at the wage discrepancy between workers and top management and the widening of that gap it's easy to determine why things cost so much, funny it's not so wide in Japan. Maybe upper management is a little more responsible over there. OK I'll shut up now.

 

The catch is that we sell overseas too. It's a complicated trade off, it's logical that the foreign governments would place tarriffs on our goods if we did it to theirs, and losing the overseas sales could cost many jobs, just as the outsourcing and foreign buying does. I'd obviously rather see "local" people make more money than have our dollars go overseas, but I also don't understand how these unions (and i'm not "anti-union") can get such high wages for some of these jobs. I can appreciate the work involved, but it seems backwards to me that a lot of people with degrees are actually making a lot less than these union jobs are paying...

 

Great thread with many well thought and written posts - The free expression of thought on this board shows what makes this country so great. I hope the future generations will continue to experience the prosperity this country has known in the past... BUT it won't be easy. We the people need to take back our government from the economic interests that control it. Not for a handout but for a fair and level playing field for our middle class working people's economic interests. Jobs with a living wage, reasonably priced health care, affordable housing, and products and services that are made in this country. We can't continue on the path we are on because inevitably will lead to a third world economy much like Mexico's. We are all guilty of buying things based on their price alone without paying attention to quality and where they are made. Oversimplification of our problems by blaming one group or another isn't the answer either. As a long time Union officer and steward I see selfishness and greed on both sides of the fence and deal with both the same if they are not reasonable in what they want. Supervisors and managers that are on a power trip and don't know what they are doing get the worst from me. Management needs to work closely with and listen to the majority of the people show up on time every day, know what they are doing and do an honest days work. I spend most of my time dealing with the 5-10% of the employees who don't want to do this. Although I DO AGREE that greed, especially corporate greed and short term, short sighted management has had the most corrosive effect on our country. I do believe that all of the working people do need to stick together to stop that. A democratic labor union is the only way we have to do that. Does the U.S. Chamber of Commerce represent you? Remember that the 5 day 40 hour work week, paid holidays, no child labor, worker safety laws were fought for by your grandfathers and fathers about the same time our old cars were built in the 30's and 40's. The Unions were them, which is the same way it will have to be now if we want to stop the erosion of our way of life. Individually we don't have the power to effect change, collectively we do. Normally I'm a lurker but this thread was too good to pass up.

 

People don't vote their conscience. They follow party lines.

 

Dont expect Detroit (aka. the big three) to ever rebound.
These companies have lost market share for the past 30 odd years now and what have they done to change the course other than a few bandaid fixes to get them through the next quarter.
I have been in the Manufacturing sector for 35 years now.
It pisses me off to see these jobs leave the country but none of us have the power to change it on our own.
Service industries Is where its at other than the high technical end of things.
My wife travel to the Phillipines three years ago because she could not find enough nurses to fill her companies needs. She looked for a year and a half.
She came home with 75 nurses. eager to work and very good at what they do.
Take advantage of the aged babyboomer timing.
Look into areas that care for and service the needs of the older generation. theres big money in this stuff.
The average nurse here in Ohio makes between 50-85 grand a year.
This subject depresses me..........

 

I feel almost guilty..I just sold a piece of property on the southside of San Antonio that dramatically increased in value because of the new Toyota plant.in 1981 when I moved my business there, everybodys going "the southside? ewww isn't that where all the sewage treatments plants are?" historic S.A. southside stigma..then Toyota announced and "Toyota fever" began..I sold my property for four times what I paid for it and got the hell out to Austin (paradise)..there is no way in Hell I would buy a Toyota, I will put a fresh engine in my 86 Chevy Pickup and drive it another 400,000 miles! maybe that is part of GMs problem they built them too tough..I feel just as worried about how things will effect even our local economy..my endeavors are rental property, will people continue being able to pay the rents that are asked in this area? building hotrods, a definate luxury, and managing a meat/seafood market, 23.99 lb. for tenderloin? how about 1.69 lb. for fish nuggets.....

 

"One thing my wife and I have worked to do is NOT have debt. We buy what we can afford and if we can't, we wait. "

The single best advice posted here today.
I'm going through the 13 week 'Dave Ramsey' course right now.
Lots of very good information included and well worth the price of admission.
r

 

Changing an engine is great for you.....unfortunately the regular citizens have to "buy and drive"......and with the cost of parts and labor, vehicle repairs....even small ones can bankrupt a family.....and that's why toyota is kicking ass.....no need for Mr Goodwrench.

 

Read,
The Toyota Way.
You'll understand why the American Car companies are loosing business. Seriously. Do it.
I have bought five Toyotas now. I bought Gm cars since the early 70's.
Stop buying any American car in the early 80's when I had two new cars fall apart in two years.
In the last 25 years. I can honestly say I have not had one mechanical or electrical problem on a Toyota.
Now tell me I'm not getting my moneys worth.
Yes, SB chevies are or were bullet proof. But I have worked in the quality field for Volvo-Gm Heavy truck (yes they went to bed together) and learned its not always about the power plant that makes a car reliable. Its the small components quality thats important. And how well the manufacturing of a vehicle is mistake proof taking out the human element as much as possible.

 

I think is a problem with society.

There is a LOT of people who think they are entitled to a a good job, good benefits, and a good life, but are not willing to work for it. Top this with a disposable society with a high cost of living and its a recipe for disaster.

$30 an hour for a high school dropout to put the lug nuts on a car?
$40 million dollars a year to be a CEO? Come on.

WTF? Labour costs like that have to be passed to the consumer...then everyone complains that everything is too expensive.

Until the "working class" in north america decides its actually going to work for what it wants, we will continue loosing jobs to people overseas who are hungry to work . They are virtual slaves being paid next to nothing...but its better than where they were before.

Skilled manufacturing jobs are desperately needed in many areas because they can't find any good machinests anymore.

 

Wow. I didn't want it to get this ugly... I just wanted to know if anyone had faith in our city. Yikes! :O

There is a lot of really good advice in this thread, and we've adhered to most of it, the major debt we have is the house. No CC's, car payments (except auto extortion, er, I mean insurance) and the utilities.

I just have this nagging feeling telling me to leave. Which is depressing because I grew up and live in the same town, which given the COL around here is actually pretty amazing. Very few of my friends still live here, they've moved to what our parents call the "old neighborhoods" cuz that's where are parents came from.

I guess, like they say, home is where the heart is. But what if you can't feel the heart beating?

And, thanks to JYD32 for his exceptional offer this morning. If I could weld, I'd be on it like a fat kid on a donut!

Jay

 

Good for you. Every young person should read or listen to what Dave Ramsey has to say.

 

Unfair Trade is killing the Auto and all manufacturers. For the folks that think the playing field is fair, they are wrong.. We quoted a job for a T2 supplier and our material costs were higher ( no labor or overhead costs) then the product shipped to their dock all the way from China. I just want to know how does a american manufacturer survive. The same parts that Delfi makes are now made overseas at a fraction of the cost.. So how much of the american automobile is made here?
Just a FYI on the trade bullcrap, check to see were your Garlic, mushrooms and other produce come from? China Why? So we can't grow products cheaper here?
Buy American Be American