O man Im gonna get reamed for some of this but hear me out before you run me off the bord here. First some background: Im 19 and have been into cars all my life, know my way around pretty much anything with four wheels, not a rich kid jumping on the r@trod bandwagon or a 'chainer who stumbled onto the wrong forum. Ive been lurking here for a while keeping an eye on the scene. Anyway My old man and me have had a musclecar project for a long long time but it needs a new everything and he doesnt have the time or money to commit to it. Frustrated by this last spring he bought a 93 Firebird Formula with the lt1 and 6 speed. That car flat out screws with only around 300hp and sounds like pure sex. Kinda got me wanting a quick car of my own but camaros/firebirds/mustangs are like bellybuttons. On a college kid budget I figured maybe a traditional rod would meet my goals of fast and unique. Now before I reveal the master plan let me define my view of a traditional rod. That way you can hate me for being disallusioned instead of for being a noob unappreciative of vintage stuff. The way I see it traditionally a hot rod is a car that is made faster any way possible using maximum innovation and minimum bucks. In the 50's that meant flattys and no fenders but it seems that sometime in the late 60s focus on performance shifted to muscle-era machines and away from 20s and 30s stuff. "street rods" are almost never built for all out performance and even most jalopies are built more with an eye towards history than outrunning everyone else on the road. That said I think the most tradtional form of a hot rod would use whatever parts are available, new or old, to accomplish the goal of speed. So my plan for a traditional rod is to find the cheapest, roughest coupe or tudor body I can and go kill-myself fast in it. Frame will be built from scratch with the floor welded to the bottom of the rails so I can channel and chop it to death and still have a reasonable driving position. If I get crazy maybe a cage of some sort to stiffen everything up. Motor has to be cheap and light; cadillac northstar fits the bill (heres where everyone stops reading). They are all aluminum, cheap as dirt, and with a set of cams and springs will make about 375 hp and rev straight to the moon; perfect for a light car. Transmission will be a t-5 from a late V6 camaro because it almost bolts up to the northstar and they are nearly free. If the car ever hooks up the trans will be done for but theyre like a hundred bucks each and some of the 5.0 guys have figured out how to make them last. Front suspension will be a custom built independent setup . Im a mechanical engineering student and just couldnt live with knowing my split bones were just a huge bind even if it did work alright. It will be designed properly (I have the skill to do this) not like any of the MII streetrod stuff that is used just for a smooth ride. I am basing it off of C5 corvette uprights and brakes but swapped sides for rear-steer. Might sound expensive but this is where GM's legendary parts interchangeability comes into play. Early 90s Saturns used the exact same uprights and the last of the s10's use the same hubs. Saturn and s10 parts are cheeap! Im pretty sure I can even make it look ok-maybe pushrod activated inboard shocks. Rear will hopefully be a similar independent system using the same uprights and the 8.8" center section from a late Thunderbird/Cougar/Mark VIII. This is the same differential as in every 5.0 Mustang so used posi-s and gears are everywhere. Yes it is going to have wide radials but If I can find elegible tires in the right sizes Im going to try that angle grinder whitewall trick. I will also run open lakes pipes on the northstar and hopefully a carb setup to get rid of the efi so it wont be totally devoid of ols school stuff. Interior will be really bare-bones just a couple of the cheapest aluminum seats I can find and a few guages. I really have thought this plan through and priced parts. Im not just pulling this out of nowhere but hopefully it can be driveable by may-ish for around $5k. I realize this might not jive too well with some of the stuff on here but I dont know of a forum for hard-core, cheap "modern" streetrods and this will be built in true HAMB style with tons of fab work and almost every part coming from the junkyard. Go ahead and hate me if you want but thats my plan and justification and I would really value opinions and ideas from fellow HAMBers here.
I agree with your basic definition of hot rod and think it is the attitude you take into it more than the parts you use. However for a cheap rod I'm not sure that the custom built IFS is the way to go, even if you have the engineering nouse. Basic beam axle setups are cheap, they work and I reckon you'd be happier with the overall feel of the car. Good luck with it and show us some progress pics. Pete
I'm only new too, go your hardest, we all have different dreams, thats what makes it so cool!! don't wait for your dreams, chase them down and build them !!!!!
very well thought out. Except for one thing. The five k. It'll nickle/dime you to death during the build. Better to find a half finished project, where the bucks have been spent, and finish it to your tastes. From the posts I've read here most (not all) do that anyway, or have their friends help out alot. Keep an eye out for non belly button car. They are out there.
For 19 you got your head on straight ...but a small piece of advise if your looking for cheap and fast look harder and be more patient...200+ hp motors move real good in old tin!! Not to mention old motors are everyplace...and you can get old beam axle front ends with every thing for well under 3 bills. If your real patient you can build a real traditional "styled" hot rod for under 5k!
Okay, couple comments, couple concerns and I'm not going to bash since A) someone else probably will and B) because you've at least thought this out, are already in defensive mode and there's plenty other things to talk about Okay, comments and concerns... WHY are you trying to get this done by "May-ish"? I too went to school for Mech. Engineering and I'll tell you what, I didn't have time to get a car done by May! For that matter, I'm NOT in school and I'm devoting about 90% of my free time and already have a lot of the parts I need and I KNOW I won't have my car done by May... Take your time man! There's no awards for rushing through this and if you're going to design that front suspension right YOU WILL NOT HAVE IT DONE BY MAY! If you have the front suspension completely designed, fabbed and installed by May you haven't done enough studying and you haven't considered enough design possibilities. Those are just concerned comments though... I like that you've thought this out and I like the attack you have, but I also know you shouldn't try to rush a good thing or should I say THINGS... (your education AND your car). Now, my other concern, T5 (V6) behind a Northstar engine (V8)... cheap or not... why would you do that? I have an engineering challenge for you, show me the numbers that prove that's a good idea (not money numbers). Dude, I think you have a great idea, I think you're thinking with all your might, but I don't see the real reason for all this rush-rush building. Is the build part of a project for school? Just curious. That all sounded like a little bashing... none intended, just don't completely understand what you're trying to prove with the May-ish deadline. Spend some time and do LOTS of research so you don't end up completely REBUILDING the car later because of quick decisions and "quick engineering" practices.
Northstar engines are not cheap. 350 Chevy's are cheap. 5.0 Ford engines are cheap. I like your plan. IFS don't look right on a fenderless car IMO, but if it's what you want go for it. I'm a 5.0 guy. A totally stock 5.0 Ford Mustang engine will make around 300 hp with little more than a carb, cam and heads. Car Craft got a 100% stock shortblock 5.0 to make 405 hp at the crank with the OEM factory camshaft, AFR 165 heads with 1.7 rockers, a weiand stealth intake and 650 demon carb. http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0307_ford_302_v8_engine_buildup/ My 1990 Mustang GT convertible has about 260 hp and a 5 speed. It weighs 3600lbs. It's faster than most cars on the road, slower than others. I know in a lighter car it would be a riot and it runs on cheap gas, is easy to fix, and is simple, simple, simple. V8's don't need to be rev'd to the moon. 6000 rpm is plenty high for a street engine to rev. I rarely rev higher than 5000 in my 5.0 since I run out of either room or the speed gets too high too fast.
mechanical engineering student .... that means absolutely nothing. I know more than one engineer who couldn't engineer thier way out of a paper bag your definition of traditional is all eskew. northstar and independant suspension is not traditional. it never will be. traditional in car speak is a build style. using certain parts, with wheels tires and stance dictating whether it fits the definition or not. ..if you swap your vette uprights side to side you will be messing some stuff up. good luck with that I do applaud your enthusiasm though.
Thanks for the comments, guys. As far as the timeline is concerned I realize there is no chance this is going to be on the road by May or maybe even next May. Its just something to shoot for cause I cant wait to drive this thing. I also understand that doing the engineering thing in no way qualifies me. Believe me I too know engineers that are totally incompetent and even more engineering students who are idiots. Actually had a kid in the machine shop come up to me and go, "Hey, Matt, which way do I turn this to make it looser?" The fact is I am car-guy first, engineering student second. I have been playing with the Suspension Analyzer program from Performance Trends and It is not going to be a completely from-scratch design but interpolated from C5 corvette coordinates for narrower track and longer control arms so they reach all the way to the grill shell with no goofy brackets sticking out the sides ugly-ing things up. C5's have terrific geometry and I am going to try to maintain it as much as possible. If this proves too difficult and a solid axle setup falls into my lap I will probably use it but I like the challenge of doing my own stuff and if it I can engineer it properly it should work really well. As far as swapping uprights side to side how do you figure that will cause problems? The only geopmetry change this will make is putting the steering arms toward the rear and the calipers toward the front. If there is a huge issue please let me know Im just not seeing it. I know that a 350 is generally seen as the cheapest route for any rod but if I can get a lighter, more powerful, and less overused Northstar for like $700 why shouldnt I? I have no idea why they are as cheap as they are but I dont make the rules. You are probably right that the T5 is a terrible idea but I can't seem to come up with a better option. The rear will have 4:11's or 4:56's to make use of the 8000rpm redline so overdrive is a must. All the ratings on T5s say they wont take it but there are mustang guys with dozens of 11 second passes on slicks with stock T5s. If there is a better option let me know! The only ones I have come up with are the TKO-500 ($$!) of NV3500 which is a clunky, huge truck trans. Keep the tips and opinions coming!
Overall, I like your idea. Just make sure you run a hood. These new motors just aren't as pretty out on display like they used to be. I agree with you that your idea is in the spirit of hot rodding, but this board isn't just about the general philosophy of hot rodding- it's celebrates a specific period of time in hot rodding (pre-64). Most people on here create vehicles that are either accurate recreations of the technology or heavily influenced by the aesthetics and styling of that era. Some people on here (myself excluded) have little interest or tolerance for anything outside that era. If you haven't checked out the Kimini Project yet, do it now. The guy built a car from scratch and he did an excellent job of documenting the build. So much so, he's going to publish a book about it. Besides his build notes, he's got a really good book list to check out.
kid --you sound like we did in the 50s--we wanted the fastest & best we could get for the budget we have--go for it---everyone wants you to build what they want --but remember----YOU ARE BUILDING IT FOR YOU NOT THEM---
well, it sure beats this "idea" that this one hillbilly has (who's sitting on a pile of Early Iron--sadly it'll never get built..., or sold to someone who will build it)...he wants to take a '79 Ford Econoline 350 and put the front clip from a 34 Ford BB truck on it.... But "traditional"?...Nah....
Ok so its not a "traditional" rod but one built in the same mindset as the guys that built traditional rods before they were called traditional. Like hotrodder3 says. Im hoping this mindset will be enough for HAMBers to cut me a break and help me out with it. As far as a hood goes I will run one both to cover up the fugly plastic motor and keep everything dry; hotrod season is too short to not drive in the rain.
Question... are you designing the front suspension just to do it for the experience and to say "I designed it AND built it and I know it works"? I'm all for the idea if you've got the shop resources to do it. Would be great experience. Something else you'll learn as an Engineer though, is that there is a time to NOT reinvent the wheel. There are TONS of great IFS setups out there. Not discouraging you at all... If you want to do it for the reason above DEFINITELY do it! You MUST do it! Good luck with this man. I'll forewarn you, you WILL take crap from people on here for this build because of some of the things you want to do and the fact that you're probably moving in more of a "str**t r*d" direction, but don't get discouraged. Just do what you need to do and DO IT WELL! Most of all though... PLEASE have a good time designing and building it and DON'T skimp on school (since you're in it and all). The later classes are more fun, I promise... Oh yes, beer WILL help you get through the semesters too...
sounds great just dont try the grinder made whitewalls ,paint em with rubber paint you can buy it from wallmart etc its used for dipping the handles of tools in itll look like the real thing ,it wont crack like house paint and you still have some safety left in your sidewalls!~!and dont take any shit off the nostalgia police most of them will have their heads too far up their own asses to see how much fun youll have driving your own homebuilt,and you know theyll all say they could do better,good luck!!!
Just a little help. Slow Down. Turning the uprights to put the steering arms to the rear will ruin the ackerman angle I think. On the northstar issue, the motor mounts are real retarded. The 60 degree v-6 bellhousing pattern is close but you will end up with about 4 1/2 bolts in the belhousing, you will see what I mean. You will also have to notch the bellhousing for starter nose clearance. Northstar v-8 are very wide also making them a tight fit in any early car and when you factor in the water pump is at the back of the motor when turned the "right way" they can get kind of long, too. I installed one of these in a '41 cadillac and it sure does scoot but there was a price to pay and there were many compromises to be made, this is what it is all about. As far as the T-5, a gm v-6 t-5 is extremely weak compared to even the standard 5.0 T-5 and no where near a World Class T-5. Good luck and take your time, you gotta walk before you can run. P.S. If you run this motor you will spend at least $500 in belts, hoses, gaskets, and misc bolts (metric). That is the stuff no one thinks of when planning their budget.
don't know what school you go to, but do yourself a favor and if your school has a formula team (FASE) team, dive head first into that. You'll lose a lot of time, sleep, money, and maybe a girlfriend or two, HAHA, but you'll learn more in 1 yr of building that car than you will in 4 years of a "mechanical engineering degree PS, you want some more insite into the independant suspension, tube chassis, fabricating a racecar or FSAE feel free to contact me, I go to Rutgers University, place 15th last year and 17th the year before out of 140 teams from around the world, and am chassis team leader this year
my thoughts exactly. I totally respect you for your ideas, your enthusiasm, drive, and that you want to build a hot rod with your own two hands, every one of us were in your shoes before. BUT, just remember the HAMB is about traditonal cars, that means at the very least carburetors, straight axles on fenderless rods, and pre-64 sheetmetal. So, try not to be so defensive and don't come out of the gate too hard to convince anybody that Northstars are traditional, everybody on here is gathered with roughly the same focus- traditonal rods. But wait! Now, I'm not bashing your build, go for it, sounds like a plan and it's great to set goals for yourself, and challenge yourself to build cheap. My bro and I built our T-bucket in 7 months from the ground up, BUT, the budget will add up on you, so $5k isn't the best to shoot for. On a college kid budget this particular project might not be best. Don't let my rude comments stop you from asking tech questions along the way, cause I agree about hot rodders back in the day didn't give a cent about what was traditional or not. But, when I ask questions about coilovers and 460's here I come with a flame retardant suit! Good luck!
This sounds like an interesting project, seems like you have a good plan! Listen to the oldtimers and don't forget to post as you go on with it.
I'll start off like everybody else here....I dont mean to bash you or your project, you like a different style of hot rod and thats fine. But as much as you want to think youre building a "traditional" hot rod you are not. You are building a hot rod, not a traditional hot rod, the word traditional has no place in your description. I agree, you are using the same mind set as the hot rodders from back when but the car is not. Traditional hod rods are built with traditional parts, period. Alot of guys use some non traditional parts (ie. t-5 transmissions) but non-traditional parts are used very sparingly and most are out of sight. Now I'm not trying to burst your bubble here, and I don't want to tell you what parts to use on your project, its your project build it the way YOU want and dont let people influence you if you want to build it a certain way. All im saying is that yes you are building with a traditional mind set but you will not be building a traditional hot rod. So far the guys on the HAMB have been pretty nice with their responses to your ideas which is great to see, but be prepared to have some guys on here tear you a new one. I wish you luck with your project as you sound pretty excited and motivated which is good to see.
Man....where to start. When I was 19 I was pretty much just like you. I started going to school for mechanical engineering, and it sounds like we had similar backgrounds. I grew up working on cars, I had rebuilt several engines, transmissions, and rears plus a ground up redo on a 70 triumph twin. Most of the guys I went to school with didn't know the difference between a wrench and a socket. I, like you, was cocky in my ways, thinking that I knew everything there is to know about cars. It was about this time that I started to build a model a that I got for cheap. It was a sport coupe and I was going to make a roadster (what I really wanted) out of it. I built a frame, 1/4 eliptic front suspension on a F1 axle, and bought a desoto hemi and a four speed. I thought I would have it together in a year start to finish. What actually happened is I got way too much time invested in something that I didn't like. By the time I had cut up the sport coupe beyond easy repair I realized the real differences between a coupe turned roadster and a real roadster (some call them coupester's I acll them poopster's because they look like shit). I also realized that the 1/4 e front suspension looks like shit on a F1 axle. So I started to piece together what I actually wanted. I built a new frame, got a dropped axle, reverse eye spring, 40 brakes, 40 rear, built an open drive conversion, etc. I also decided that for what I wanted and the price a sbc is a lot better of a choice. The hemi is expensive to build the way I wanted to (high compression, big cam, multiple carbs). The result: I have way more than 5K in a car that I actually want. I don't want a shitbox. I want a car that I am proud to say that I built. I have built way more parts on this car than most people do and I still have a lot of money in it. Some stuff just plain costs money, I could have put a 4bbl on it for cheap, but it too looks like shit, so I got a 4x2 setup (not cheap). So you need to ask yourself what do you really want. A northstar powered shitbox or truely a nice car. If you really do just want something fast, fun, and cheap I would find a car and do a motor swap. You can find all sorts of early cars for pretty cheap (especially non-ford cars) that just need a later motor/trans/rear put in. This way you aren't scratch building a car which takes a lot of time. On a side note, while I was building my shitbox I was kicked out of school for low grades. Basically when I was in high school I never studied, got good enough grades to go to the college I wanted, but picked up some bad habits. The first couple years of ME courses are easy enough to skate through without studying, but once you get past Dynamics, you need to get serious. I didn't and I got kicked out of school. I went to a JC for a year, got my grades up, got back in and finished my degree. It was absolutely worth it. There is so much to learn about mechanical systems that you can't learn from working on them. I know several other people who like me got booted from school for similar reasons and didn't make the effort to get back in. Don't be one of those.
This is all great advice, guys. I appreciate it a lot. I guess I should not have referred to this as a traditional rod. I just know the folks here are very knowlegeable and want to tap into that. Sorry if I came across as cocky, Im really a pretty humble guy. I just wanted to prove I sort of know what Im talking about so you guys wouldnt pass me off as a goofy kid without a clue. I would kill for an FSAE team at my school but its just a community college (otherwise Id be flat broke and not building anything). A couple of the schools I am considering for transfer next fall have them and I will certainly dive in head first. Where I am now we have a mini baja team but its run by a bunch of good old boys who would rather get sloshed and drive around in the mud than actually build anything to be competitive. My research on transmissions shows the 93 through 02 F-body V6 boxes are world class units. Their lower first gear makes the torque rating a little lower than V8 boxes but a northsat should put out significantly less torque than an 11 second 5.0 anyway. The bellhousing can apparently be modified by moving one bolt hole up about an inch and cutting clearance for the starter. The gen 4 camaro transmissions also have the 26-spline input shaft so the plan is to nab a used 7.5" double plate quartermaster type clutch from a roundy round guy because a 10 or 11 inch clutch wont fit in the bellhousing. Some of you guys sound like my mom telling me to make sure I study and don't goof off. haha Ill do my best. I want the freak out of school so I certainly dont want to do anything twice.
do something different: learn how to make a solid front/ rear axle car handle. Being an engineering student, it should present quite a few interesting questions and you will learn lots.
well alright then. suggestions box. Bulldog performance (I beleive) has a carb set up for northstar motors. and finned valve covers. bitch of the bunch will be distributor mounting, and MAKE SURE YOU BEEF UP THE STARTER PAD before you attach the comparitively larger flywheel- it's fragile and will break the outside ear off it if you aren't careful. northstar motors have a fatal flaw, and it's called a "T seal" the block is seperated into 2 peices and the seal leak. any attempt in replacement will result in anger,frustration...and an oil leak in a different location. deal with it. if you want to run a t-5, then run a t5. in the event you break it, buy a richmond later-they're expenssive, but you shouldn't have to change anything if you install a T5 to begin with. I.F.S. is atrocious on a fenderless car. the only guy I have seen pull it off is Troy Trepanier, and even the, just barely. so if you just gotta make the front end "do the dance" Either pete and jakes or so cal (hell, mabey speedway....I can't remember) sells a kit that SPLITS the front axle under the spring mount. cons- you gotta run a tube axle. pros- if you put a 33 grille in it, you will never see the stupid thing anyway. no engineering neccecary, and the bind you couldn't stomach is gone. see! all wins. (and you didn't have to deface the suspension of your car to do it.) oughtta be pretty quick- the drive, I mean. the build...well, so long as you don't have a girlfriend, you might be able to pull it off by may.
" Im a mechanical engineering student and just couldnt live with knowing my split bones were just a huge bind even if it did work alright." Don't underestimate the old ford beam and bones setup! Think of the split bones and beam axle as a primitive sway bar, not as stiff as most modern sway bars but works on the same principle. I lost the magazine to the great flood of 2000, but there was a nice road test between several sportscars, musclecars, and one 34 Ford....out of the ten or twelve cars tested the 34 with drop axle and split bones finished third from the top against a repro Cobro, and the high end vettte of the time in the slalom and skid pad tests.
Noooo split axle! Swing exle suspension is waaay worse than a solid axle handling wise. The only advantage is a smoother ride. Thanks fot the northstar info, though. I think IFS can be made to look slick if the spindle is tucked as far as possible into the wheel and the control arms are extended all the way to the grille shell if that makes sense. Mustang II setups look terrible because the crossmember is too wide and the spring buckets just hand out in the wind. I agree it wont look nearly as elegant as an I-beam and maybe I will see what I can do about making a solid axle car handle. The main constraint is extremely high unsprung weight and the fact that a mid-turn bump upsets both wheels, not just one. On a smooth track there is no advantage to IRS but theres no such thing as a smooth driving surface anywhere around here.
Boy, you sure are planning alot of work for yourself... A few questions, I'm sincerly just curious: Can you weld (TIG, MIG, etc.)? Do you have much metallurgical experience? Is this your first complete project? What kind of facilities do you have? Are these facilities close to school and/or where you live? Are you working while you are in school? Please, I'm just trying to get a handle on who you are and what you are going to have to deal with.
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