Well, howdy y'all. I'm having a bit of a conundrum. The camshaft in my good ole lo-po Pontiac is still good but I've got a couple lifters that someone's overtightened in the past which don't like to stay put, one that's worn to a groove and a couple others to a dish. Thoughts on throwing a new set (likely good pre-loved) of lifters in on an old cam? It's not a high speed engine, and the springs are real soft being an L-head. Thanks Phil
If the lifters are cupped the lobe probably has a crown to it on those lobes. If you keep adjusting the lifters to take up the lash should be a good indicator the lobes are wearing down. All of that metal wearing off the cam and lifters ends up in the pan and everywhere else.
I expect you should be able to get over a thousand miles out of it if you swap in a few better lifters, either new or used. Like you said, they don't have a lot of load on them. But if you want it to last a long time, get the cam reground, and lifters refaced or replaced. Delta Cams will probably do it.
@greybeard360 I haven't been able to inspect the cam yet; I pulled a couple lifters to inspect when I did the valves last bit that was a while ago and I don't have the photos any more. This is by far not new wear, it hasn't worsened in the last 5000 miles. @squirrel it doesn't see highway much and spends most of its life below 1500 rpm. My only concern is why that one lifter quit turning and wore a rectangle, and as said, the resultant odd wear on the cam.
What does it cost to try? What does it cost to fix it proper? Is the labor the same? Is it a engine that you want?
Just the cost of the lifters. Quite a lot more than lifters alone. Yes, I would be doing the work. Yup, ugly duckling that it is.
Sounds like it is closer to needing to be pulled out and be rebuilt and all moneys should go to that and not some to a patch.
My take. Some [all?] are saying replace the cam and lifters. Or words to that effect. So, what have you to lose if you throw a used lifter in there and a couple thousand miles down the road you DO have to replace cam and lifters? As you said, the cost of the lifter and your labor. And it may work longer than that. Go for it and then we will all KNOW. One way or the other. Ben
It's got good new* alloy pistons, bearings and gaskets that don't leak (much), new stainless valves which work well when set up right. It's a wonderfully smooth engine when it's running right, just the lifters are the one real consistent thing that refuse to stay in tune. 1000 miles is 3 months or so; if it stays in something resembling the correct adjustment that long I'll be happy. There's no pressing plan to sell up. Ultimately, I would have to replace this cam with a good used one and replacement lifters if this one eats itself. I just hope the machining tolerances are close enough to accept different lifters. Good, seasoned lifters are definitely high up on the list. * "New" is relative, within 10,000 miles or so
^^^^ I would agree. If it’s got 100,000+ on it, you might as well give it a try. New or used, pop in some replacements and see how it goes. If you find yourself continually readjusting it (them), you have your answer and you can drive it and look for rebuild parts in the meantime. Good luck.
So, it’s only got around 10,000 since it was rebuilt? That’s different. In that case I’d do the reground cam and new or resurfaced lifters. Drop the pan and clean everything the best you can.
What did they do 'back in the day'? Throw the new (used, broken in, whatever) lifters in and go for it! What do you have to lose? You don't beat on it, you know what to expect from the rest of the engine, so if it sounds goofy on first startup, you'll recognize it. Just think of it as more 'bonding time' with your Poncho!
When i bought my Buick it had several lifters not so much worn but kind of collapsed, so some previous owner had adjusted them like solid lifters. I had trouble with the lifters losing oilpressure but that later shown to be leakage in the pushrods, seems like they have made there own new pushrods and had solder the both ends too the pushrods, and they didn´t get them oilproof so when the oil got warm i loosened oilpressure, so bad that it started to backfire thru the carb. But before i found out that i thought that the lifters were the cause so i swapped all the lifters to new ones, i were really nervous about it but that was 10 years ago and i have put 19000 miles to it now and the engine still runs nice and quiet. Maybe i´m just lucky i don´t know
Keep it running, flop em in there like ol Clem mighta done to get to work for the rest of the month. Got nuthin to lose unless you secretly have a plan to try and buzz it 7000 RPM and you ain't tellin...
Just a question, but why hope you can get another 1000 miles out of a rebuilt engine with 10k miles on it? If you have another engine to put in it, I can almost see that side of it, but why not just keep adjusting till it it dies. Cheapest and easiest way.
If it were a simpler task, I would agree. However, doing the valve lash on this engine every oil change is particularly droll. It takes at least an hour, can't comfortably be done in the rain and involves burned arms and fingers. The excitement has worn thin. The lift on the valves is so little that the tic-tic-tic of a chatty lifter soon turns into a misfire. Given the experience shared and knowledge imparted here, I think I am going to see about getting hold of a few replacement good lifters and go down that road with it and see where it takes me. 1,000 miles? If it goes that far it'll probably do 10,000.
I've done it many times and on Pontiacs. One 389, one 400 two 421s and a 389. Do NOT Treat it like a new cam / lifter install. The cam has already been worn in. Before installing the new lifters do this: -Only use Johnson lifters. -Take the new lifters apart and make sure there clean, I've found metal shavings in every set of new lifters I bought. Fill the lifters with straight W10 oil. Switch the hair pin lock pins for circular clips. Never use the cheap hair pin clips. -Fill the crank case with straight #10 with a quart of GME.O.S. additive. Never use E.O.S. except for new cam / lifter installs. If EOS is used regularly, it will wear down the rings, cam, lifters, fuel pump arm, etc. ** Optional**, With a long duration cam, check the lifter center fit of the center with the outer shell. The looser you can get them, the stronger the bottom end will be, however it will be noisier but it will perform just fine. Since you have the front end opened up, I would replace the cam gears and chain. Use the the stock style chain and gears. They stay in contact with the crank continuously. Parts Lookup - Melling Combination of Toothed and Sleeve Chain Due to their kinetic behaviour, toothed chains have a high potential for improving dynamic and acoustic properties. While toothed chain drives have been used for many years in lightly loaded timing chain drives, they have not yet been used in more heavily loaded engines due to the larger chain length compared to shell and roller chains. In the new chain type of the toothed/sleeve combination, an optimized kinematic movement sequence at the inlet and outlet of the chain into the sprocket has made a reduced height of the inlet impulse possible. This also includes the non-uniformity of the movement and force transmission. In order to improve the wear behaviour, a sleeve was integrated into the tooth lugs of the inner member. Whereas the articulation movement takes place at the inlet and the outlet into the sprocket between the tooth plate and the bolt in the case of conventional toothed chains, the process takes place between the sleeve and the stud in this chain variant.
Without inspecting the cam it's a crap shoot if new lifters will last long. If you buy one of the cheap $15 endoscopes off Fleabay you can plug them into a laptop, or smart phone and get a good look at the cam lobes to see what's up. I've got a couple of these inexpensive endoscopes and they're a fantastic, cheap tool for looking at hidden places.
Sidevalve so some of that theory is superfluous - they aren't hydraulic lifters, and it's a very non-aggressive cam. I don't have to pull the front to pull the lifters. 99% chance the lifters I can get will be used. Phil
That'd a good idea. They've definitely become an affordable tool. I cannot easily inspect the cam without dropping the oil pan.
Flathead Pontiac.... I had an old Flathead mechanic(1940-60s racer) tell me this.... " The used cam and lifter swap issue on a L head engine is not that big of a deal. Just make sure you use good parts." He explained that a L head lifters are not under the same wear and tear that OHV lifters are. Comparing OHV engines to L head engines is apples and oranges and lifter/cam swaps are much more forgiving in a L head engine.
Well Phil, you've already set the thought process in motion.... just carry it to the logical conclusion: "The lift on the valves is so little....." CAM THAT SUCKER UP!!! find yourself a big ol' lumpty lump bump stick, port the block, bigger valves, stiffer springs, a four carb manifold and headers! NOW we're talkin'! Beat that bastard like a red headed stepchild and show that tranny who's boss!!! Oh ..... sorry.... I kind of got caught up in the moment. Just replace the bad lifters, button it up, hang your elbow out the window, and..... cruise! Good luck! By the way, those things are such a pain in the ass to adjust valves on, that back in the day, most just made noise and went about their business.... they ain't no rocket ship, no matter what you do to them (although my oldest brother's hand-me-down '53 with a hydro consistently kicked ass on my other brother's '53 Ford V-8, so they've had that going for 'em!).
High compression, ported, bigger valves, headers, a set of side-drafts, trumpets with wire mesh rock-catchers, lightened, balanced and with a chunky cam. That would be fun. I think it's either one or two lifters it needs.
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