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Projects 1949 Lincoln 337 flathead

Discussion in 'Traditional Customs' started by Kevin O'Connell, Oct 2, 2022.

  1. Kevin O'Connell
    Joined: Dec 21, 2008
    Posts: 42

    Kevin O'Connell
    Member

    I’m looking for a few things for a 1949 Lincoln 337 flattie.
    I need-
    Head studs(not bolts).
    Polished stainless acorn nuts and thick stainless washers for the heads.
    Torque specs for Austin aluminum heads.
    Whether the generator is the same as used on Ford flatties and if somebody makes a polished unit or a chromed cover for it.

    thanks in advance, Kevin
     
  2. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 4,860

    Rand Man
    Member

    Where did you buy the heads? They could find that for you. I had one of those big flatties.
     
  3. So did I, sold it by proxy to a guy in Texas. Still have the car it came in though.
     
  4. Kevin O'Connell
    Joined: Dec 21, 2008
    Posts: 42

    Kevin O'Connell
    Member

    I bough the last heads and two carb intake Ken Austin made for the 337 before he threw them in the junk pile. I paid $600 for the heads and $600 for the intake.
    Molds were sold to H and H. They were no help on parts I asked about.
     
    Rand Man likes this.

  5. hemihotrod66
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 968

    hemihotrod66
    Member

    You might try ARP,,, they sell different length studs,,,,or Mcmaster Carr...
     
    Special Ed likes this.
  6. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    I started to write a post and it became a lecture so I deleted it and I will start over with :
    Why studs ?
    Why stainless washers with grade 8 studs on aluminum ? Beware they all have different expansion qualities .
    Got room for a torque wrench in the trunk ?
    I know a guy that use to have too do that all the time and I hope you have better luck .
    That guy did replace it all with grade 8 bolts they got a nice finish too
     
  7. v8flat44
    Joined: Nov 13, 2017
    Posts: 1,211

    v8flat44

    Vanpelts, maybe ????
     
  8. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 3,271

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    Just so you know....
    FoMoCo, Head bolt holes are a tight tolerance. A regular tap will open up this tolerance potentially causing a leak. If you chase threads, always chase with a modified original head bolt.
     
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  9. FrozenMerc
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 3,092

    FrozenMerc
    Member

    Be careful when using stainless nuts on a grade 8 phos and oil stud. The internal thread friction may be way off, causing the torque to generate either way too high or too low of a clamp load. This results in stretched and yielded studs that no longer provide the correct clamp load, or too low of a clamp load to begin with, both resulting in a burned head gasket.

    You are probably best off calling up ARP and telling them you need 54 head studs, and I am guessing at the size, but probably something like 1/2-13 x 5" long. Get their nuts and washers as well, then you know the friction will be correct, and the correct clamp load will be generated. They won't have an off the shelf kit, but should be able to piece something together for you. Then go to your local Big Rig Chrome shop or Peterbuilt Dealer, and get the chrome acorn nut covers that snap over the nuts.
     
  10. Kevin O'Connell
    Joined: Dec 21, 2008
    Posts: 42

    Kevin O'Connell
    Member


    I’ve seen several flatties with studs and nuts, just not stainless acorn nuts. I don’t know if they’re having stretch or expansion issues.
    I don’t want nut covers, just real acorn nuts. The washers I’m flexible on.

    I’ll listen to the lecture if you’ve got time. My first flattie with aluminum heads.
    Also, are the head bolts the same length as the stockers?
     
  11. Kevin O'Connell
    Joined: Dec 21, 2008
    Posts: 42

    Kevin O'Connell
    Member

    Anybody got an answer on generator question?
     
  12. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Let me ask Alan Wednesday about the length and I will let you know . Most Lincoln's I have seen do have the real acorns it's a status as is having a Lincoln . I will also ask Alan if he has a complete set for you . Also I think his are early Edelbrock or the manifold is . Also would you want acorns on the intake if possible I think it be best to match now so plating is same I mean let's strike up the band here . Red dice on air cleaner spinner nuts are an added WWHHOOAA!! I will also ask Alan about the generator question
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2022
    chryslerfan55 likes this.
  13. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    I had to think how to explain this simple so this goes in line with FrozenMercs post :

    Imagine you have 3 boxes all same size one with 50 jumping bean and another with 150 and the third with 200 . So these beans in the box get excited when heated and randomly jump around but in molecular structure they cannot because they bond to each other till their melting point temperature is reached( science of cohesion you can Google it it's good to know ) .
    Well you bring in another box these are different size jumping beans in the second box and there are more of them so when heated they can never bond to anything in the first box and same goes with the third box .
    In welding you cannot weld aluminum to anything but aluminum and same with any other raw material I know of even carbon fiber process is cheated by the use of resins though some manufacturers are in denial that they are using glue that's my outlook of carbon fiber .
    So when you heat up ferrous materials such as iron and steels they expand and contract differently than aluminum thus they never stick together under a microscope or on an engine .

    Yes yes some lucky car owners get lucky I'd say about 20 % and I don't have time to research that as it's probably because their engines temp stays low or low compression or they just drive local I don't know it could be that 900 pound engine carries heat well but it doesn't matter to me I got this science knowledge and I abide by most of it's laws unless Tommy's engine gets more looks than mine well I'm just gonna have to do something about that Lol .
    Have a nice day and let you know what I find when I get there concerning your Lincoln
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2022
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  14. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,625

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    I'm a licensed BMW tech, retired. In 1986, we were introduced to a new 'technology' that was adopted by our parent company, BMW of Bavaria... This was called 'Angle Torquing', and was confined to the torquing of cylinder heads.
    I was alarmed when the regional Service Manager came round to demonstrate this.
    Procedure was to torque the head to specs, (2 operations, 30 ft. lbs. then spec; Now, take this 'instrument' atop the torque wrench (or breaker bar) and PULL the head bolts another 90 degrees!)
    I distinctly recalled a 2002 (1972) 4 cylinder 1800 cc that a former service mgr. insisted on retorquing every cylinder head of every 2002 model that came for service: This one customer had complained of overheating, so when I removed the cam cover I fitted the radiator pump and gave it 12 psi pressure at the rad cap.
    A huge crack in the aluminum head casting appeared, emitting little beads of coolant along a 14" crack, just above the cam.
    This is an extreme example of excessive 'torque', same as if the aluminum head were torqued to specs (with harder studs/bolts) ignoring calculated 'bolt stretch'.
    Sorry for the O-T example, it was a revelation at the time...
    The ASE instituted this practice for all American cars around this time, and became the 'parent company' for BMW schooling thereafter. (!)
    "Is nothing sacred?" groan...
     
  15. Torque to yield bolts. The theory is that the bolts will all yield at a very consistent tension value, thus providing an equal clamp load for each bolt. Many, many new engines use TTY bolts. They are a good thing as it removes the torque variability, but the TTY bolts are one-time use and not recommended to reuse.

    Back to the OP's question, once the length required and thread is determined, I suggest take that size and talk to ARP. They likely have a stud or bolt that can work just fine and the quality of ARP is going to give good results. I do not believe ARP uses TTY though for the older engine applications. So follow their torquing recommendations for proper clamping load. Torque is a just a poor indicator for resulting tension in the bolt, which then produces the desired clamp load for the parts.
     
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  16. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Yes I do recall the many manuals that all of a sudden were deemed useless yet it was the engineers who were useless and the Harvard Business Grads running the show we're eating it up and our paychecks and profits were getting eaten . VanPelts is another one that I already said if I ever see him at a Meet In going to buy him a Motors Manual . This stuff happens worse today with the internet so moral of story - BE CAUTIOUS and know everything you can before you step in a slippery pile ... Oh yes I'm a West coast grey market guru we probably crossed paths back then
     
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  17. Kevin O'Connell
    Joined: Dec 21, 2008
    Posts: 42

    Kevin O'Connell
    Member

    That sounds great and I appreciate your help. Intake set would be awesome as well! I bought polished frogmouth scoops with filters that snap on. I’d love to see pics of his set up.
     
  18. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Went there today just had time for a '41 with a 12 in it I will post this evening and share what we found so far Ha ! We ain't done gotta dig thru more cars !
     
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  19. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    IMG_20221005_132504895.jpg IMG_20221005_132345858.jpg IMG_20221005_132442613.jpg IMG_20221005_132333553.jpg IMG_20221005_132626293.jpg So basically your issues are the height of the bolt landings as compared with stock heads and the thickness of the heads from stock to whatever thickness the creator of the aluminum heads chose . I wouldn't pop the heads until I at least had some measurements or knew the studs you purchase fit heads of comparable and really same thickness as your heads . I show you different heads same era from 1941-48 and are different for '49 .
    Do you have any of these head bolts benched or shelved you can measure the relief area and the threaded portion . If not I can see if any are available for measuring . Now the 8's are Ford manufacture and the 12's are Lincoln born engines so I don't think bolts from a 12 would be proper length for you but it's an idea I will check .
    In the picture are all '41-'48 metal and shows stock aluminum head by itself you can see it's stock thin and then the Hogan heads are noticably thicker . The hardware came with the heads and are last or second to last original Hogan heads to come from Australia/New Zealand in Hogan's wife's luggage .
    You do want Grade 8 studs with grade 8 nuts and the thick washers on the pictured engine are chromes not stainless . Acorn caps is what your looking at here and on the real half the guys I talk to lie to me about them being real acorns . The advice from a lifetime Rodder I've bought from for 48 years and go to for advice says for you to forget the stainless it's problems and just a reminder , " Hey ain't your Lincoln parts like 2 1/2 times the cost as my Ford parts " Lol .
    So let me know if you have some old head bolts around for measuring and I'll go see if I can dig some up for measuring . I saw a Lincoln 12 hardware set somewhere asking price was a grand Lordy lordy for a stud kit with real acorns now that's an expensive squirrel !
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2022
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  20. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    So generator same as Ford is the word IMG_20221005_132242833.jpg IMG_20221005_132250386.jpg IMG_20221005_132258327.jpg as in first picture so here are some close-ups
     
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  21. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Ok as for head bolt torque specs that is designated by the head manufacturer and I have found that these specs are for bolts not studs on engines designed for head bolts and utilizing studs allows for a greater torque which is necessary for higher compression engine thus the head torque spec values would be announced by the engine builder . With studs I go 5 lbs over Motors Manual Spec when using studs at 10 lbs over spec I believe you start compromising the deck now there's a guy I know from high school days named Dale he probably goes 15-20 lbs over on his blown '34 !
     
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  22. Kevin O'Connell
    Joined: Dec 21, 2008
    Posts: 42

    Kevin O'Connell
    Member

    Well, thanks for the scientific stuff, but I’m a nuclear machinist and mechanical engineer and have had plenty of chemistry, physics, metallurgy and SAE courses on fasteners. Anyway that 900 lb anchor is in a 6000 lb car that’s not supposed to be fast, just cool!
    I know better than to combine dissimilar metals, but I’ve also bolted plenty of iron to aluminum and heat cycled it plenty without issues.
    Now, I’m no flattie expert, but head studs, nuts and washers of similar materials should have close to the same expansion rate. I’m not interested in TTY sets the factories use either.
    The head and block expansion rates are different of course and I’d be interested in seeing how much head fastener torque changes after several heat cycles. It’ll probably be worse near exhaust valves as heat is higher there. Car sees maybe 1000 miles a year and runs 180 degrees in both 35 and 100 degrees. Oh, and factory compression ratio is around 7 to 1.

    Anybody know what the torque specs should be on aluminum heads on cast block? Austin heads any different?
    How about somebody that can guide me in setting up the two Holley 94’s on the Austin intake? Straight linkage or progressive? How to determine rough jets sizes? How to synchronize the two together? Setting mixture screws?
    Sorry if it’s too many questions and no offense to everyone that responded. Great to find knowledge on hot rods from before my young age(64)!
     
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  23. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Can you tell me how thick the heads are and I will ask Alan what his are at on the one I showed even though it's a 12 it's similar and to me same setup as your 8 having aluminum . I e always gone by thickness I learned from my uncle he built Bobby Unsers Champ engine that won the Indy 500 so I do know limitations and he also mentioned type of threads in the block and how many threads when calculating torque specs so can you send me a profile picture of the head with a measure tape on it ? And 7 to 1 compression you will be safe and I will call Alan tomorrow see what he says about the torque . Glad you know the science I teach welding not Molecular Structure Lol
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2022
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  24. Kevin O'Connell
    Joined: Dec 21, 2008
    Posts: 42

    Kevin O'Connell
    Member

    Thanks buddy! I’ll get some measurements of head thickness and whether it’s solid under each belt hole. Not sure about water passages in heads. I think they are 7/16” x14tpi. I’ll check to see if all bolts are same length on new heads too!
    Where can I buy polished stainless tubing to build radiator to head hoses?
     
  25. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Yes the threads in the block will be 14 and for the nuts well they could be 20 per inch so different on each end of the studs . Also you want acorns for engines not body acorns and there are different crowns some taller . There is an online hose building store it's been a year or more since I used them I have to find them here somewhere I will let you know . Sunday is swap meet so the little boy has to sleep for early morning excitement I will let you know what else I find and I think I'm going to be directed to Mr Smith Lol
    Edit : A depth gauge on the top mid and bottom head bolt landings would do it fine
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2022
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  26. Hemi Joel
    Joined: May 4, 2007
    Posts: 1,528

    Hemi Joel
    Member
    from Minnesota

    FYI, The Lincoln 12 and the Ford/Lincoln are not of the same engine family. They have nothing in common. The 337 is a complete new design. You'll need to stick to checking 337's to get any accurate info.
    I have stock cast iron, plus aluminum Edmunds, and Edelbrock heads on hand for the 337. I can measure them and measure stock fasteners for you if it would help. But I don't have any Austin parts and I don't know if they are the same.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2022
  27. oliver westlund
    Joined: Dec 19, 2018
    Posts: 2,352

    oliver westlund
    Member

    Im stickin a 337 in my roadster. Fun seein em talked about
     
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  28. Kevin O'Connell
    Joined: Dec 21, 2008
    Posts: 42

    Kevin O'Connell
    Member

    Stock head measurements would help a lot. I can just measure the Austin heads against stock and be able to see if the length works out the same.
    I’d appreciate that!
     
    Flathead Freddie likes this.
  29. Kevin O'Connell
    Joined: Dec 21, 2008
    Posts: 42

    Kevin O'Connell
    Member

    Give me a shout. I’ve got original factory manuals for them!
     
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  30. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Yes it was all we could get to and has generator on it as it was asked about also and yes that could be different pulley but all seem to be same generator by itself so yes all Flatties are comparable yet different . It's part of the fun ain't it now .
    Now mind you I'm ' just a mechanic ' haha I'm not really of the Auto Shop breed I was taught how an engine should go together at a young age by my Uncle Dick a world class engine builder from the '40's to the '80's so you bringing your knowledge and your parts measurements into play here will help this head swap become a successful graft for this '49 Lincoln I am not the mechanic on it and there is alot involved here it's not just popping heads off and setting new ones . I will explain to the owner what suggestions I utilize for a bulletproof success story . The owner seems to be liking the use of Stainless water tubes so may want stainless acorn head nuts also for an aesthetic match and also a stainless generator cover if all these are available for his 337 . Meanwhile :
    This is not my thread but the owners so with respect I would very much like the measurements of your stock bolts and how many threads are on the stud to go into the block and the length of the studs relief areas for top mid and bottom if landings are of different depths . That would be grand as would a landing depth comparison of the stock and both types of aluminum heads you have as Edmunds products themselves are different their early products I've had are more of a stock specification and their later manufactured runs have upgraded Combustion chambers and other attributes . Example to this is I have an early Edmunds 8BA aluminum intake seems created in 49 or 50 perhaps well it's right next to me and it's runners are close to Ford stock size runners the Edmunds intakes foundered later have changes in them so I ask if you can tell us if the Edmunds heads are early manufacture or later manufacture and also to the combustion chambers and many of these heads have a redesigned quench area even Ford played with the quench area my 8RT heads are totally different than my EAB-B heads so how each CC design affects the performance in different ways some for bottom and torque and others for a better top end and another question is what head gasket type did you use and are you happy with those head gaskets and are they coppers or composite and I ask as I have concerns about changing out heads on a block that has not recently been decked and I do cross block sand a deck very very carefully before swapping any heads but I have been doing this since 12 and it's hard to teach successfully on a phone it's simple actually you don't go crazy you just spiffy up the deck . And he has to clean all the bolt holes after removing all the iron flakes in the water jackets to assure alot of things I will talk to the owner about that later . It's not just clicking for an ARP stud set delivery and setting heads , I am sure you also do a multiple torque process maybe go 20 40 then 55 S most do I go 15 30 45 55 yes four and warm up at idle then retorque and doing that 3 times for straight carbed a d a bunch more times if running a Paxton of some other intake pressure device . Then I take an acorn at a time off and loctite it just a small smear of loctite so torque reading is sound and nut stays where it should .
    The owner is still a long ways from putting heads on so yes your measurements and advice is appreciated
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2022
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