I'm just testing out the waters here to see what the interest level might be. What would you pay for a newly manufactured, alloy twin cam head for a Model A/B engine? A complete head package with cams and drives and covers. Something that has a nostalgic appearance, great sound, and easily boosting the horsepower up into the low 200 range and possibly more. Mike
any design sketches or anything giving an idea of appearance is it patterned after any existing head from the past? if i happens to have a combustion chamber similar to a HAL or offy then will you have a supply for pistons? Zach
It would have to be competitive with the prices of current OHV gear currently being made. If it was cheaper and better, you'd have a winner! Mark me as interested in hearing more about this.
well, if'n it boosted the power to the claimed 200 range, I'd have to consider paying a bit more than current OHV's, say 50% more. My determination of value would be based on power output, reliability, tuneability, replacement parts, LOOKS, but most importantly what else needs to be done. If it's a bolt on and go affair that won't affect the bottom end, that to me would increase the price I'm willing to pay considerably. If, and I suspect this is the case, you need insert bearings and full pressure oiling, overbore, B cranks, etc., well, then that turns me off. I've been considering the current OHV's because many people run them with babbit and stock oiling systems with no problem, just keeping compression on the lower side. Any more info or pictures you can share?
I also would like to see an example as well. There seems to be a very strong banger market,but remember they sell in small #'s. Here is another question re: replacement parts availabilty. Will there be enough, lets say cam followers replacement or larger valves, different cam grinds and replacement head gaskets. Will the head be mfg'd out of A356-T6 material. Will the head hinder reliability of the lower end by raising compression beyond what a engine designed originally for 4.5:1 CR could handle w/o killing the lower end. Also lets say if someone were to go on a quot;club tour" like most of the Model A guys do, would it be able to hold up to long term driving? Just food for thought. I think that it's bitchen that you are even considering such an undertaking and wish you well in your endeavor.Kevin
Did anyone see the full set of original blue prints that were on Ebay about 6 or more months ago? They were of a twin cam head similar to the HAL. I don't remember any manufacturers name attached to them. The bidding sat at $40 for the whole auction. I put a bid in of $100 a couple of hours before the auction end because it was finishing at 4 'o' clock in the morning for me. The other guy put in about 25 bids to out bid me by a $1! With the blue prints you would have been a third of the way there. If you went to the expense of having the mould made and cast you might as well have a bunch of 'em done and maybe sell them un-machined as unless you was doing the machining yourself they would be to costly to sell commercially. Of course CAD and CNC is a whole different ball game. Them lumps of billet would never have "the Look" though.
Just call the Miller Offenhauser historical society if you want any of thier blue prints. I have the ones for the model T twin cam head. so what kind of design parameters are going to be followed for this head? I assume you are going to use 90 degree valve separation, 4 port intake, 4 port exhaust, but what else? Are you going to go real old school and design a gear train to run the cams or a timing chain...god forbid a timing belt! what kind of combustion chamber are you going to use: pent roof or hemi-speherical? Are you thinking 2 valves or 4 valves per cylinder? Are you going to try and utilize modern cams, lifters, etc: ala toyota or go from scratch? How are you going to determine cam profiles, who would you use to grind your cams? Are you going to offer single and dual plug set ups? intake manifolds? compression ratios? How are you determing that the head will produce 200 hp? how are you going to seal the block off (original exhaust and intake ports)? what are you doing about head gaskets? will my water pump still work, or will the timing chain get in the way? are you going to set the valve and the cams so this a truely plug and play system? Will my stock oiling system work, or am i going to have to upgrade it? are the heads, covers, etc coming polished or rough cast? have you ever attempted anything like this before? What is your engineering backround? what is your projected price point? I recall that there were reproduction twin cam heads produced a few years back, but that is all i recall (other than seeing one)
To me, having it look just like an original DO is the the most important feature. You can hide modern upgrades to the design,drive belts vs. gears etc. I think the Galivan /Gemza patterns are still out there on thw West Coast somewere. Good luck with the project! A brand new DO McDowell would be nice to see!
Charlie Yapp says he has $140,000 invested in the Riley 2-port. Thats an 'F' head, which is half an ohv and its is a copy not a new design.
How about a Frontenac stagger valve http://webpages.charter.net/w01845730/pictures/Fronte001.PDF http://webpages.charter.net/w01845730/pictures/Fronte002.PDF
It's a good idea. But you gotta start somewhere. Lots of questions to be answered, but I'm interested. Let me know if you need anything.
The late Bob Mc Kinney (REM) in CA built and sold two or three DOHC set ups for the A / Bs. I dont think that he found much of a market for them. A good babbitt job will hold anything the 3 main "B" crank can stand. Ask Henry Miller, Ed Winfield, George Riley or Wes Cooper.
I'll take TWO!!! One for each bank on my 8BA, how cool would that be. Quad cam OHV flathead conversion... Danny
WELCOME to the HAMB! Two of those McKinney DOHC powered cars are a 45 minute drive from my house in a private collection. Small world isn' t it!
I know for a fact that he sold a lot more of them than two or three, He told me shortley before he died he was trying to get the last three out while he still could. He was one great guy and would take the time to talk to you and answer all your questions even when he didn't feel like it. That project kept him going and he truly loved the Bangers. If a new head can be made, with that kind of potential with a price thats not over the top, they will sell like hot cakes. How deep is the market? I really don't know, but it's not two or three.--TV
That would be supercool and if the price would be somewhere near the currently available overhead conversions I'd think about getting one. But in my opinion nostalgic apperance or vintage styling isn't enough. I want it so be a copy of a old head, like the HAL och McDowell. Internally it could of course be modified. The REM head looks far too new. It's like putting a modern head on a 4-banger. //Magnus
Well, thanks to everyone for putting forth their 2 cents. Lot's of good information in all your replies. I'm not sure i can even make this happen, but, with every adventure comes that first step. A lot of your questions will become bullett items in my business plans and discussions. But from what i'm reading, it's about the 'look.' A lot of the other questions i can't even begin to answer at this point, but is sure appreciate hearing them. Overall, it seems that the interest is there. If others have comments / suggestions, post them here. Mike
I think it going to be a lot more difficult (and expensive) than you think it will be. I'd also like to welcome michaelp to the HAMB. It's great to have someone who knows a little something about old engines and engineers! --Matt
Mike, ...I don't know where you are located at in Colorado but several years ago I sold a single-stick McDowell to Norm Frick (also lives in Colorado) who cloned it. As I understood, he also had done a dual-stick version too. If you do not know Norm, he would be a good place to begin. He enjoys turning chunks of alloy" into ere-acloned heads. He will even build a head totally of your design. I spoke with Norm again the other day and asked about the single-stick amongst some other things. I also was supposed to return a phone call and this just reminded me to call him again. I will also say that there is a very limited market for exotic banger heads that are reproduced. The market is stronger for original heads that have been brought "back to life". I say build something one-off, go have fun with it ...and then sell it to re-coop some of your investment.
Hello. I purchased a glass 32 Roadster with a REM equipped B engine at the Reno Swap meet a couple of weeks ago. I'm trying to find history on the engine that is in this car. Any chance that this is one of the cars that are near you?
The 1932 Ford Collection that was here in Connecticut had a lot of cars with overhead conversions, and close to 10 4Door sedans. All the cars were restored to stone stock and any modified parts were installed without any extra holes drilled. I think they built a few Roadsters by swapping 4Door bodies, but think they may have used Brookville steel bodies. If your car looks real nice and is maroon it may be from that collection. Bob
Wow! What a massive amount of work for only 4K! It’s been 15+ years, but I heard rumors that he was only producing complete engines for the tune of bout $25K. Out of my range then... and still!
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