My plan: I’m going to spend the coin on Hells gate guide. I’m not hip to doing it with a hand drill, so being I have a spare offshore drill press I rarely use, I figure to hole saw out a hole in the table. Then chop a few pieces off of a 2x3 aluminum bar I have. Slide the axle down into the hole, place it on the blocks. Shim the table to be firm at 90•s to the drill bit. I can affix a clamp under the table to keep the axle in place. The cost of the guide and two? I think it was, bits, is what Moser charges to do the work, but that’s without shipping I’m guessing. Whatcha think, is my plan sound?
I wouldn't do it without a mill with X and Y axis travel and at least a reliable scale on the crank handle. If the cost is that close, have it professionally done. Maybe locally and save the shipment charge.
I was kinda thinking the same thing. Do you know how it’s done on a mill? I’ve not been around many, does a shop have an attachment for the table, I’ve never seen one with a hole in it. Just trying to get my head around how they do it
Kinda what I was thinking about, but did you notice the axle “wobble” over has he was putting pressure on the press? That’s why I was thinking of blocking it solidly for support.
This works great. I used a hand drill to change a 4x 4.75 to 5x5. https://www.hellsgatehotrods.com/shop/drill-guide/
That’s the place I was looking at for a guide. I just figured doing it on a press would yield better results. (Well, be less effort on me too)
Moved to Texas after retiring in 2019 but lived in B'field area my whole life. Born @ Porterville Sireea View, lived in Fountain Springs, attended Porterville High, Porterville College and Fresno State befor moving to Taft then B'field to work as a petroleum engineer my whole career. If you notice the big oilfield development from James Road to Poso Creek on HWY65, I was VP and lead engineer for that development. I installed severeal MII front ends (that reference will likely get this thread erased) on street rods and had a drill guide machines that fit tightly over axle hubs and accepted hardened drill guides to redrill hubs. Made it easy to do an accurate job on my Harbor Freight floor drill press. One hole to fit over the MII bolt as an index, 4 1/2", 4 3/4", & 5" redrill patterns. Different sized hardened bushings for different sized bolt knurls. For my Mysterion show car I didn't need super precision so used accurately laid out plywood drill guides centered in the wheel rim but they came out within a couple thousndths of perfect too. I got a set of vintage Halibrand mags for the rear of my Willys. They came with 4 3/4" & 5 1.2" patterns. I took them to a machine shop that milled a 5" pattern on top of the existing 4 3/4" pattern (milled in the same location so the holes were slight oval, lugs fit tightly on the outside of the oval) for my Willys Olds rear.
With a little luck, you can get away with the "close enough" approach to redrilling bolt patterns when using tapered seat wheels but not so much with shank style lug nuts/wheels.
Some things you're just money ahead farming out and spending your time doing your own welding, block sanding, etc. For all the setup and labor involved, I wouldn't recommend doing it yourself unless you have access to a good mill. Just think, if you drill your new bolt pattern off center just a tad, think what that will do to your wheel balance and ride at 80 MPH.
This is one of those situations where you can spend a little money and purchase a tool which will open up all sorts of new abilities for you..........or go cheap and get something that can work but has lots of room for error.........or simply spend the money and have someone else do it for you. If you buy a milling machine it will take time to get it, and hook it up . Maybe time you don't have because it takes a while to locate a decent mill for a decent price. So unless you have a really good friend with a mill who is willing to work with you, I'd forget that option for now. The mill will be a lot easier to use if it has a digital readout. When I drilled axles on my mill, I made a thick plate that bolted to the table and extended back toward the mills column. I mounted it toward one end of the table so it was sticking out far enough to hold an axle vertically. There was a hole in it for the axle to go through. A couple of leveling blocks (1x2x3 blocks), or anything that can be put under the flange to hold it level. This was simply a method of being able to mount the axle vertically and allow movement of the mill table to the correct locations. Then the head of the milling machine was loosened and swung to the side so it was above the axle and I used an indicator to center it on the axle flange. When centered, I poked the buttons on the digital readout to establish that as my "zero" starting point ....the center of the axle. At that point you have to use trig and calculate the locations of the lug holes. Its really pretty easy to do. Once you know where you want to put the holes, its simply a matter of cranking the handwheels on the mill till the digital readout says you are at the correct "X" and "Y" location. Tighten the handles to lock the table so it can't move and drill the hole. What you will find is that machining is basically a matter of locating a part in relation to some cutting tool in a manner that allows you to move the part or the tool to make a cut. Its repetitive application with adjustment for what you need to do. It doesn't take long to grasp the basics and begin making things. Its not just your axles, its a new way of life for future needs.
It can be done on a drill press; even I did it. As with anything else, ensure everything is where it's supposed to be, and square!
We used a drill press. No issues but my dad was a machinist and laid out the holes. One issue with a cheap drill press is the table being square with the drill. Most angle down a tad. Most mills may not be able to move away from the table to allow the axle to be mounted. A nice heavy table with a hole and a mag drill will work if ya have access to one. But it’s definitely doable, measure measure and measure again.
I have drill guides. I have been using them for years. My daily has re-patterned hubs and brakes. The wheels are balanced nicely, and the car has been up to 140 with no issues (except coolant temperature spike). Oh, and I used a hand drill. My guides were made by the guy who sold the designs to Hell's Gate. My daily was put together using one he custom made for me that also changed lug-count.
I’ve even used those plastic ones as a guide and never had a problem especially if I had a floor drill press. It not rocket science.
As far as how it gets done in a machine shop, I have worked in shops that did it. All mills are not created equal. You need one that can drive the table a few inches out from under the spindle. Set-up was pretty much as Ekimneribo said. I have been scoffed at here before for suggesting using CAD and DRO. I don't weld with gas and coat hangers anymore either. The machinist would tell me the bolt pattern. I would quickly draw a pentagon (or hexagon, or octagon, 4 bolts were too easy) inscribed in a circle the diameter of the bolt pattern, with the center on 0,0 . Then, just record the X,Y coordinates of the 5 points. The machinist would center the spindle on the center of the axle and zero the DRO. Then, it's just a matter of "driving" the table around, using the DRO, to the 5 points and drilling. You might spend a minute indexing the axle so as not to drill a hole in a hole. Hubs, drums and rotors were a piece of cake. There are free CAD programs out there that will draw polygons. I still use AutoCad '97 LT given to me by a former employer (He said "teach yourself", and I did). DRO has been in every shop I have worked at since the '80's. That was how it got done where I worked. When we got the CNC series II Bridgeport, it got even easier. Mike
I can do it on my Bridgeport Series I clone, with an DRO. It has a probe, and all of the functions built in. It is an Accu-Rite DRO300, and I have an electronic probe. If I touch that probe to three points on something like a hub register, the DRO finds the center automatically. Then all that need be done is to type in the number of holes, the radius, and the the number of degrees off of 0 to start the first hole. The DRO sets the first position to X: 0.000 Y: 0.000. You move it there, and lock the table. After performing the operation you push the next button, and it sets the next one to zeros. You move there, and repeat. In my case, the setup takes way longer than just bolting on the drill jig, which can be done on-car even!
Dang, you have one of them new-fangled DRO's ! The shops I worked at were old enough to have 1st. generation electronics. Scant features besides position. And, being tight as skin on hot dogs, were going to use them 'till they quit working. Old Mitutoyo DRO's seem to take forever to die. When the last shop I was at went CNC, (20 or so years behind that curve), it was just a matter of setting up and pulling up a program. After all, it was a "profit deal", time is money. Mike
My dad eventually built a plate. About 3/4 thick. Had the small ford and small gm bolt pattern. The studs fit snug. Then we used a transfer punch to locate the new hole Made this super easy. If you used the correct piece of tubing in the jig hole and drill bit, you could squarely drill a pilot hole without hurting the jig.
I think that it is about 20-yearss-old! I could do this on the Haas UMC-500, too but again, the CNC programming and the machine setup would take 20x longer than drilling 4-hubs/flanges/brakes with the guide.
ALWAYS chamfer holes slightly before trying to put in new lug studs, also, if using a press, make sure the axle flange is fully supported at stud location.
If you can find one of those aluminum wheels cheaply that has the correct bolt pattern, you could always use it and have a almost a readymade drill jig. Buy a hardened drill bushing off Ebay that fits the lug holes so you can start with either a small drill bit or better yet a "center drill". It will also have to fit the round axle lug in the center of the axle. Then drill a hole in a table and insert the axle and clamp it all so it can't move.
I bought the drill jig setup from Rotten Leonard (now Hell’s Gate) and they work just great. Don’t overthink it. Just be sure that you have sharp drills and a good cutting oil. Take your time. I also have ring-type drill jigs that I made or had made over the years. I usually used them in a decent drill press with some fabricated clamping tooling. The RL/HG version is easier and gives you the same results. Unfortunately, when I went to redrill the Chevelle rear end in my roadster I soon found out that the axle flanges were hardened. So much for that idea. (It’s got a narrowed ‘60 Olds now). I don’t know what you are redrilling but check to be sure it’s not hardened, that my make the decision for you.
Oops! I misread your home town ad Oildale, not Oakdale. My little bio would have made sense to you if you were from the former, not so much for the latter.
For those not familiar with the drill guide, the guides make sure there's really no room for error, the drill bit goes down the tube, use it to leave a witness mark and chuck it in the drill press or continue on with your hand drill.
i needed to redrill two brake drums from 4.5 to 4.75 i got three mag lugnuts with open ends i used two to bolt on a later race wheel with two patterns to the axle and drum then i drilled a 1/4 inch hole through a 1/2 fine bolt on a lathe i screwed it into the third lugnut and used it in the other wheel pattern as a guide to drill 1/4 inch holes at the second bolt pattern then it was easy to take it apart and finish drilling the other patern
I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone makes the dual pattern for a 5" pattern, but if someone uses a wheel that slips on the center lug closely, it will be centered sufficiently to use a 5" wheel for a drill pattern. Sometimes there is a mismatch of the center lug size, but thats usually easy to deal with.
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