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Technical Detergent oil VS non detergent

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Reman, Dec 21, 2021.

  1. Reman
    Joined: Jul 8, 2010
    Posts: 352

    Reman
    Member
    from Florida

  2. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,935

    squirrel
    Member

    no need to paint it, just fix the stuff that's keeping it from working right.
     
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  3. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 6,825

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    I run non detergent in my shop compressor but not in any of my vehicles. Lippy
     
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  4. joel
    Joined: Oct 10, 2009
    Posts: 2,467

    joel
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The '41 p/u I'm working on now came with an 8ba ( maybe really 8rt, who knows) . I ran it very little until I removed the clean-out plate on the pan. I worked for a couple of hours dragging sludge out of the pan. I'm estimating at least 1/2 in. in the bottom of the pan was sludge. Also about 25-30 % of the pump screen was plugged. Losing 1/2 in. of volume in my pan is about 19 Fl ozs. It seems to me that's the same as running the engine 1/2 qt. low all the time; let alone the constant contamination. Just thinking out loud.
     
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  5. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,935

    squirrel
    Member

    If the pump screen were only as large as the tube it connects to, then that would be true. But it's huge compared to the tube...almost like they designed so it will still function when it's mostly plugged up. Clever back then, they were.
     
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  6. Dollar General sells non detergent. I am not familiar with Florida, in any state that the economy is based on agriculture you can find non detergent oil at ag supply stores, IE where the farmers buy off road diesel or where there is a grain elevator or buy tractor parts.

    Back to original question. Buy a can of engine flush (I like the Rislone product personally) and flush it according to the directions. drain it and fill it with detergent oil. I personally may add an oil filter.
     
    Elcohaulic likes this.
  7. finn
    Joined: Jan 25, 2006
    Posts: 1,280

    finn
    Member

    One thing to remember is that the non detergent oil likely has no anti wear additives, nor does it have any measurable TBN to counteract acid buildup and corrosion of the bearings and other internal components of the engine.

    I would pull the pan, any side covers, and filter can, ( if applicable), clean everything including the pickup, slap it back together, and run the best modern detergent oil available.

    There’s a reason engines were worn out and smoked at 50k back then. Lots of it was attributable to the crappy non detergent oils you guys are waxing nostalgically about.
     
  8. XXL__
    Joined: Dec 28, 2009
    Posts: 2,117

    XXL__
    Member

    It was traditional.
     
  9. H380
    Joined: Sep 20, 2015
    Posts: 483

    H380
    Member
    from Louisiana

    NAPA has its own brand 30w non detergent. We get it by the case for air compressors and pumps. NAPA also has straight 30w detergent. Shell Rotella T1 is available in straight 10w, 20w, 30w, 40w or 50w.
     
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  10. buick bill
    Joined: Dec 18, 2008
    Posts: 856

    buick bill
    Member
    from yreka;ca

    i sure wouldnt listen to anyones advise that ask if the chevy was flathead . just sayn . im on board with getting it as warm as you dare . looking at what comes out . and putting good oil . rinse . repeat
     
  11. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,245

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    DO NOT BUY DOLLAR GENERAL OIL. Look it up, I'm not gonna, but DO NOY BUY DOLLAR GENERAL OIL.
     
  12. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,913

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I think I agree with this. I bought some, and the 10W-40 had the consistency of water. I used it in my oil cans.

    However, that was "Dollar General" brand oil; I still get most of my oil from "Dollar General". My local store (at least) has some great deals from time to time on name brand oil in sealed containers.
     
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  13. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 4,216

    ekimneirbo

    That comment reminded me of a learning experience I had when I was about 15. Went with a "mechanic" from the garage where I hung out, to look at an engine that was for sale. Believe it might have been a Hemi. The fellow told him it had been recently rebuilt.

    He didn't buy the engine, so as we walked away I asked him why he didn't buy it. He said the guy had lied about it being recently rebuilt. When I inquired as to how he knew that, he told me that the oil pan bolts were all covered with built up crud and grease and obviously hadn't been removed. Never forgot that tidbit.:)
     
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  14. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 4,216

    ekimneirbo

    I partially disassembled an engine the other day because I wanted the heads off it. It was an old Cadillac motor and these were the more desirable heads for building these engines. The heads were covered with crud and coke and were a nasty mess inside the valve covers.

    The point here is that cleaning an oil pan of all the crud and residue is a good thing, but there are plenty of other places in the engine that have crap clinging to surfaces. The heads were so nasty I took them to a shop for cleaning rather than my usual home pressure washing and diesel fuel clean up. Gonna cost $40.

    Personally I like the later oils with better technology. Remember those older engines were usually considered high mileage if they made it to 100,000 miles. Lots of reasons for that besides just the oil of the day back then. The newer oils are better, but if I was switching I would make an attempt to get both the oil pan and the valve area clean. I don't think the big chunks breaking off are as much of a concern as the small stuff. So I honestly don't know if its better to leave the crap alone as long as its clinging and not moving.......or to flush it and risk breaking small particles free. Its kind of a "crap shoot" (pun intended) as to whether continuing on or changing will help or hurt individual motors.
     
  15. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,530

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    Small point. I believe the "M" in MS/MM/ML oil ratings from the 60s and before stood for "Motor." that is, spark ignition engines.
    More logically DG, DM, and DS were the ratings for Diesel engines.
     
  16. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,913

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You're right about the heads being cruded up on the Cadillac and other OHV engines (think "Y"-block Fords and Hemi rocket shafts). However the O/P was working on a flathead, so the head is not a problem. The side covers should be removed though and that area thoroughly cleaned as well.
     
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  17. I bought a f100 about 6 years ago.
    One owner truck. Ran great. Sat up a while but was running. Changed the oil and cruised it. For about 3 months.
    Lost compression on one cyl. Removed a valve cover. Oh my, almost completely stopped up with sludge. Push rods were stopped up. Valves had dips wore into the stems from lack of oil.
    I’d still probably be using that engine had I just cleaned and resealed it
    Crappy non deterrent oil the original owner used
     
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  18. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 6,825

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    City driving, not changing the oil regularly and STP is a bad combo. :)
     
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  19. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 6,709

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    I had a late 60's Chevy beater truck one time. Truck ran pretty good, so I put a set of new plugs in and changed the oil in hopes of it being even better. It was, for about a month, then it turned some bearings. Door jamb was full of Quaker State oil change stickers. I paid them no attention and put in Texaco Havoline Supreme oil on the advise of a buddy, said it'd clean it out. It did. Washed that Quaker State crud right loose. Stopped the oil screen and tube up. Pulled a valve cover, it looked like a Jello mold of the valvetrain. Didn't go any farther, sold it to another buddy who slapped a big block 366 truck motor in it and proceeded to tear it up the rest of the way.
     
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  20. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 6,213

    sunbeam
    Member

    If the motor looks clean inside the other down side carbon behind the rings. High detergent can remove the carbon then you will have a smoker
     
  21. PhilA
    Joined: Sep 6, 2018
    Posts: 2,061

    PhilA
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hydro Tech

    I run the nicely priced 30W diesel oil (moderately high zinc, high detergent) in my '51 L-head 8, which has been apart for a clean (all oil galleries, crank, ring grooves etc) and it pulls an almighty amount of crud out with it- it turns dirty very quickly.
    In an engine that's not been thoroughly cleaned? Hard to say, if you've not been inside it and taken a good look, it's a bit of a crapshoot.
    I prefer to pull the dirt out when I change the oil, granted the particles are held in suspension and get pushed around the system but on the flip side they are less likely to get lodged between mating faces and cause wear that way. That's my uneducated way of viewing it, at least.

    Whichever you run though, once it starts to change color the oil is due a change. You just don't know what the previous owner/s considered "decent maintenance", and run that gamble unless you at least get eyes inside.

    I believe I've satisfactorily not answered any questions with this, other than Tractor Supply do cheap, halfway decent oil for low performance old engines.

    Phil
     
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  22. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 14,799

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    IMO Take the pan off and clean it and the strainer. A flathead anything store little to no oil in the engine proper not like an overhead. Very cheap insurance; don’t run it until you do.
     
  23. Now I'm having flash backs......2N 9N 8N...........
     
  24. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,264

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I am cross-posting this from a top-end oiling thread, as it gives perspective on oils:

    "My experience with top-end oiling has been with the last two first-generation Chrysler Hemis that came through my shop.

    Both had spun rod bearings. You might ask what that has to do with top-end oiling.

    Both engines had all four of the oil return holes in the lower corners of each head, and down through the block, either partially or completely restricted. The combined volume of the top of the heads and the generous valve covers is more than capable of holding everything that should have been in the oil pan.

    Oil went up, it did not come down. Bearings went into retirement.

    Both cranks did weld up fine. I discarded the associated rods.

    Y'all can think on that scenario when considering whether or not to run a detergent oil."

    Leaving the crud alone is what lead to this. It was not inexpensive.
     
  25. PhilA
    Joined: Sep 6, 2018
    Posts: 2,061

    PhilA
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hydro Tech

    Well, as has been pointed out, the greatest improvement in lubrication has been the addition of detergents.

    Without that, a routine decoking schedule is required.

    Non-detergent oil is still specified by aircraft engine manufacturers, the sight of that gray ash sludge gives me nightmares.
     
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  26. And add a PCV set up.
    Helps remove the ingredients/conditions for sludge buildup
     
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  27. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,264

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    As long as you leave enough for the whales to run on, that's just fine.
     
    57 Fargo likes this.
  28. buick bill
    Joined: Dec 18, 2008
    Posts: 856

    buick bill
    Member
    from yreka;ca

    gas engine planes use non-detergent? why ?

    Non-detergent oil is still specified by aircraft engine manufacturers, the sight of that gray ash sludge gives me nightmares.[/QUOTE]
     
  29. rusty valley
    Joined: Oct 25, 2014
    Posts: 3,883

    rusty valley
    Member

    I used to hang out with some small airplane guys, and noticed when they change the oil it comes out looking like new. So, I thought I would be kind to my old BMW R90S, and change to aviation oil. It did not like it. Burned 1/2 quart every 1000 miles. dont know why, but I canceled that idea quick
     

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