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Technical Disc vs drum

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Mr.Falcon64, Mar 31, 2019.

  1. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 5,377

    indyjps
    Member

  2. You should be able to stop as well as the guy in front of you. Back around 1974, if you drove on bias ply tires doing 70... it could be a hairy ride. Get into any newer car today and you look down and realize you are doing 80 and it feels like 40. The old Falcons were okay for their time and it depends on what type of driving you'll be doing. 9" brakes and 13" skinny tires are way undersized for my liking.
     
    gimpyshotrods likes this.
  3. wvenfield
    Joined: Nov 23, 2006
    Posts: 5,580

    wvenfield
    Member

    You are never going to get an old car to stop like a new car. ABS. etc, etc, etc, So your argument boils down to the idea of one needing to park their old car and get a car with new technology.

    Maybe this isn't the place to be posting.
     
    Beanscoot and egads like this.
  4. jnaki
    Joined: Jan 1, 2015
    Posts: 9,291

    jnaki




    Hello,

    We have been around for quite some time. In the early stages, the drums were all we had and they worked well on our heavy Chevy sedans for daily street driving. But, you had to know the stopping ability of the car. (Especially during mist, fog or rainy weather.)

    The worst is/was forgetting to go through water, salt or street water puddles with your foot on the brake to keep the heat drying out your pads. Water incursion makes a slippery or longer distance stopping time when wet.


    That was burned into our teenage minds, so we lived with what we had, adapted to it and lived to tell another story. But as our hot rod/drag race/motorcycle desert racing came into play, we learned that the drums on the motorcycles had more stopping power at any time. When the disc brakes came into the motorcycle scene, and we all knew the front brakes did most of the stopping power, they became popular on all types, from street to dirt to drag to custom show bikes.
    upload_2021-12-20_5-57-23.png
    One of my friends was a machinist and made one of the first Airheart Disc Brake systems on the hot rod/motorcycle scene. This caught on as more tests from popular hot rod, sporty car and builders came to the forefront. Discs stop better, a shorter distance to the impending doom and dry quicker than enclosed drums among other things in the design.

    Jnaki

    So, the question is, for a new teenager driver, a disc/drum combo that we have all seen on daily drivers seems to be the choice. Stopping distances will definitely be shorter than all drums. Insurance rates will comply with safety features. So, the advantage in safety is discs vs drums.

    But, traditional forums with rules dictates that drums are for traditional hot rods, even disguised discs inside of big drums. Everyone had their own stories and samples… YRMV
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2021
    wicarnut likes this.
  5. outagas1961
    Joined: Jul 5, 2020
    Posts: 129

    outagas1961

    amen on the hoses!!! iv'e had hose blowouts before. when one happens you will soil your shorts for sure
     
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  6. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 5,377

    indyjps
    Member

    Here's some rear end info.


    Ford rear dimesions:

    65-66 Mustang 57.25 inches
    67-70 Mustang 59.25 inches
    71-73 Mustang 61.25 inches
    77-81 Versailles 58.50 inches
    74 Maverick 8" 56.50 inches
    75 Mustang II 8" 57.00 inches
    57-59 Ranchero and station wagon rears, 57.25 inches
    66-77 Bronco 9", 58 inches
    77-81 Granada/Versailles, 58 inches
    67-71 Comet, Cougar, Mustang, Fairlane, 59.25 inches
    71-73 Mustang, 61.25 inches
    64 Falcon 58 inches
    67 Cougar 60 inches

    8.8 rears from rangers and explorers. 5x4.5 bolt pattern. Looks like all ranger rears are 56.5 - 58.5. Not a big deal if you're willing to buy wheels, or have some clearance. I wouldn't swap one in unless it was trac lok ( limited slip).
    Need to check width of the spring perch on the housing, width of spring perch itself.

    https://www.therangerstation.com/tech/ford-8-8-inch-rear-axle-history-and-specs/
     
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  7. gene-koning
    Joined: Oct 28, 2016
    Posts: 4,041

    gene-koning
    Member

    I'm not buying this statement.
    Back in the day (pre 64) big luxury cars often had very good brakes because most had very big brakes on them. Most of the cheap cars had very minimal, very small brakes.

    If a guy made the effort to install some of those big brake systems on the cheap cars, they had very good brakes. A Falcon with 11" drum brakes would stop pretty good, if the tires are up to the task, even by todays standards. Even back then, the guy's that needed good brakes always had big brakes. You would not have found an early NASCAR car with the standard brakes unless it was a top of the line car.

    Brakes are, and always have been about how much brake surface exists between the lining and the surface the lining contacts, and how well you can dissipate the heat the brakes generate.

    A brake drum has one surface for the lining to run against, and the wheel surrounds the drum, so dissipating the heat becomes a problem. Back in the day, you could get more lining added to the shoes, and you could get better material in the lining, but for the most part, the better lining available back then is no longer available.
    A disc brake has two surfaces for the lining to contact. Though each side may be smaller, the 2x surfaces gives 25% - 50% more braking surface. Also, the wheels often don't cover those surfaces, and many rotors have an air gap between the surfaces with cooling fins added. If the disc brakes are properly sized for the vehicle weight, equal sized brakes (10" to 10" or 11" to 11") they have more stopping surface then the drum brake has, and the disc brake rotor dissipates the heat faster then the drum can.

    If you look at most modern cars, the brakes on them are huge, unless the car is very light weight (or really cheap).
    What most people don't understand is that most modern cars are very heavy, compared to the stuff we are accustomed to. I'm betting its pretty hard to find a modern car that weighs much under 4,000 lbs. Heavy cars, big brakes, just like the heavy cars of the old days, but todays brakes have more surface area and have better brake cooling the the big cars of those days. If you want an old car to stop like a modern car, you need to upgrade to modern brakes. You don't need to throw the whole car away, just use a bigger brake system.

    If you have big brakes that function great, you need tires that are up to the challenge, and bias tires can't compete.

    If you can't make an old car stop as well as a modern car, you need to learn how to make brakes work. Brakes are a safety feature and brake upgrades are acceptable on this site. Why would we not talk about them? Gene
     
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  8. wvenfield
    Joined: Nov 23, 2006
    Posts: 5,580

    wvenfield
    Member

    No one has ever complained about brake upgrades. Many people add disc brakes. The argument was that your old car needs to be able to stop as well as the car in front of you. That is never going to happen.
     
    210superair and gimpyshotrods like this.
  9. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,661

    Truckedup
    Member

    It's not just stopping distance, it's also how the brakes feel and the ability to control lock up at the limit...Disc are better than drums in this respect..And the mentioned radial tires are a factor..But..I am not afraid to drive a car with good drum brakes at reasonable speeds in traffic...
     
    mad mikey, 2OLD2FAST and Blues4U like this.
  10. Franklin drums on my quick change rear . IMG_0232.JPG
     
  11. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    Yeah, the big brakes Shelby put on his ponys were off the shelf Ford items for other vehicles.
     
    2OLD2FAST likes this.
  12. Dave G in Gansevoort
    Joined: Mar 28, 2019
    Posts: 2,598

    Dave G in Gansevoort
    Member
    from Upstate NY

    These brakes were used on dirt cars into the 80's up here in the northeast, and worked quite well. One advantage was the ability to adjust front to rear and side to side brake bias by only changing the wheel cylinders. This was useful to help get a car to turn in on corner entry, to compensate for other problems. Hey we were learning that we didn't know squat about chassis setup...
     
    Hank37 likes this.
  13. gene-koning
    Joined: Oct 28, 2016
    Posts: 4,041

    gene-koning
    Member

    Why on earth can't an old car stop as well as the car in front of you?

    Never going to happen is bull crap.

    I can tell you for sure I've built a lot of old cars and trucks (mid 30s cars on) since the mid 1970s that can out brake any car (except maybe a real exotic performance car) you put in front of it, and I've done so without spending a boat load of cash. The only disadvantage I have now is my reaction time isn't as fast as it used to be, but the brakes on my stuff is capable of doing the job.
    My son has a retired 2010 Hemi powered retired police car with massive 13" disc brakes all around. It stops fast. He says my couple stops as well as his ex squad car, and it probably stops better then most cars on the road. Gene
     
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  14. RmK57
    Joined: Dec 31, 2008
    Posts: 2,659

    RmK57
    Member

    Because it wouldn't be traditional if it did.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2021
  15. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 3,056

    Beanscoot
    Member

    It's possible to debate an issue without insulting those with a different opinion, and calling them names.
     
  16. wvenfield
    Joined: Nov 23, 2006
    Posts: 5,580

    wvenfield
    Member

    2010 Hemi powered police car......................................
     
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  17. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 5,217

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    This IS the h.a.m.b. :rolleyes:
     
    wicarnut likes this.
  18. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 9,176

    manyolcars

    Its best to from scarebird. His parts did not fit my spindles without grinding and I sure didnt want to do that
     
  19. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,264

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It never ceases to amaze me how many people there are that believe that The Laws of Physics are something that you can negotiate with.

    The survivability of that philosophy is solely based on chance.

    I could retell the story of nearly rear-ending a certain South African multibillionaire in his carbon braked flyweight hypercar, in my then all drum brake Falcon, but I think that everyone has already heard it.
     
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  20. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,942

    squirrel
    Member

    The chances of any of us having the opportunity to rear-end a South African multibillionare in a carbon braked flyweight hypercar, are infinitesimally small. Congratulations on your good fortune!

    (I just got the brakes in my new MG TD working, it's a good thing there aren't any of those folks/cars here!)
     
    57 Fargo likes this.
  21. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,264

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I thank you, and the next ten-generations of my potentially financially destroyed family thank you, in advance.
     
  22. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,661

    Truckedup
    Member

    I had a 63 MGB for a number of years. The B model had front disc and stopped nicely....everything is rebuildable on these heaps
     
  23. twenty8
    Joined: Apr 8, 2021
    Posts: 2,318

    twenty8
    Member

    Pretty simple really. Well set up and maintained drums can work fairly well, but discs work way better. If drums were the duck's nuts, they would be standard equipment on all modern vehicles.
    When it comes to safety, why would you compromise.??? At least be sensible enough to drive to the capabilities of your drum brakes if you have them.
     
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  24. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,942

    squirrel
    Member

    Really? I guess I should get rid of all the old cars, and buy a brand new whatever which is far safer than any old car with disc brakes can ever hope to be.....

    It's all about the level of risk you're comfortable with. And humans are naturally very bad at estimating risk levels, and what things might affect them.
     
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  25. twenty8
    Joined: Apr 8, 2021
    Posts: 2,318

    twenty8
    Member

    The part of my statement you quoted is out of context if you don't include the next sentence. I have re-posted it below in it's complete form.

    Driving techniques play a large part in safety. I am not against drum brakes, but if you choose to run them, at least make sure they are adequate for the weight and speed of the vehicle, are maintained well, and you drive accordingly.
    There, is that better?
    :)

     
  26. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,942

    squirrel
    Member

    Sorry..yeah, that's fine.

    I think you'll find that very few crashes these days are really attributable to inadequate safety equipment. It's all about how you drive. So, you might as well make the statement "At least be sensible enough to drive to the capabilities of your disc brakes if you have them", it is just as applicable.
     
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  27. gene-koning
    Joined: Oct 28, 2016
    Posts: 4,041

    gene-koning
    Member

    Most of the time when I'm driving, I'm more concerned about the fool behind me rather then the guy in front of me. I can add more space in front of me and pay attention to what I'm doing, but I can't keep the fool behind me back a safe distance or keep him off of his phone or whatever stop whatever else can distract him.
     
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  28. TrailerTrashToo
    Joined: Jun 20, 2018
    Posts: 1,289

    TrailerTrashToo
    Member

    If someone is severely tailgating me, I turn on the 4-way flashers. Usually they will back off (passing me and flipping me the Bird is an acceptable option).
     
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  29. twenty8
    Joined: Apr 8, 2021
    Posts: 2,318

    twenty8
    Member

    Agreed. Every aspect of motoring has advanced..............except driver aptitude.
     
  30. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,174

    Budget36
    Member

    I like disc brakes over drums just for selfish reasons.
    I have every drum brake tool needed, the funny double bent screw driver thing for adjustment, the tool to remove the retainer clip, the tool with the cup on the end to install the springs and the slotted pliers to remove them
    I have to take them all with me to make changing shoes easy.
    For disc I need a wrench or an Allen wrench, or a torx, and maybe a screw driver to pop a clip off. Then change the pads. Oh. Maybe a 4inch C Clamp.
    But whether you run disc or drums in a pre-65 (or any year I suppose) you can’t compete with the guy in front of you with 4 wheel ABS in a panic stop, especially in bad, wet weather. And the vast majority of vehicles on the road have ABS

    The main thing, as been mentioned before, is you can’t drive you hotrod, custom or classic like you can a import commuter car, etc. if you have to keep backing off from the car in front of you, fine. Just do it. Heck, I drive my OT 4wd Pickup with 4 wheel discs and ABS like that anyways:)
     
    210superair and bobss396 like this.

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