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Projects 3 port Olds on a T motor - Poor Mans Rajo

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Blackbob, Dec 2, 2021.

  1. Kevin,
    You're probably referring to John Gerber, who started racing sprint cars out in the midwest in the 20's. He started with a 490 block mated to a T pan/trans- his book Outlaw Sprint Car Racer is a great read!!!

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 650

    guitarguy
    Member

    I fully agree.

    I don't think you can successfully get a plate to work any thinner than 1/2" and in my opinion just to make it seal correctly could be iffy, and it would require head studs also being the plate is so thin. If you look at the plate I once owned in the first post, it has a combustion chamber of sorts machined in. It actually has alot of neat features if you started to compare the layout of the two different head-gaskets as well as the block and head.

    It's too bad last I knew they weren't making any more adapters. Seems they did a short run and that was that. It's all on a CNC program I was told, so other than the machine time and materials, it wouldn't take alot.
     
  3. Carter
    Joined: Mar 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,522

    Carter
    Member


    @cabong
    The Miller brother's roadster was a '28 and ran a Lee Chapel Tornado head on the Chevy engine.

    Screenshot_20211215-234745~2.png
     
  4. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 462

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    The lee Chapel tornado head was apparently similar to the Olds, but with improvements. Shure wish someone could find one to show us the differences!
     
  5. Carter
    Joined: Mar 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,522

    Carter
    Member

    How many pictures you want? I don't have an Olds head to compare, though...
    Big ports on this thing.

    IMG_20211027_125548883~2.jpg

    IMG_20211027_125634090.jpg


    IMG_20211027_125621206.jpg


    Sorry for hijacking the thread...
     
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  6. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 462

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    Blackbob, I also apologize for hijacking.............Just a second so I can get the salivating under control..... Is it for sale? Had to ask. I will get pictures up of modified Olds. And then we can compair. Sixball has a very stock Olds if we can get him to join in . Let's see if we can get some good Info down before we lose it! I still cannot believe that you have one!!!
     
  7. cabong
    Joined: Nov 29, 2005
    Posts: 881

    cabong
    Member

    I'm git'n old, and my memory isn't what it used to be. That's why I always preface statements with, as I recall, or I think, etc. You're exactly correct, the roadster was a '28, and eventually ran a Tornado Head. Actually, that engine went on to power another lakes racer, but I don't recall which it was, although it was well known. When they first ran the roadster, it did have an Olds head, at least according to Ak. I ask him at one point why he didn't get together with Ray Brock and replicate the racer as it first ran. Surprisingly, he said he had thought about it. But, he they had a partner in the car, as Ak usually did, and the partner ended up with the Olds head. When he passed, his son ended up with it. Ak looked up the son, to see if he could get the head back, to authenticate the "replica". When he went to see the son, he had cut the head in half, to see why they worked so well. So much for the project.

    I spent countless hours sitting with Ak, or Ak and Ray, talking about the beginnings. My wife and Ak had a special relationship (we all know how he loved women), and they spent many hours, usually while I was snoring away, BS'ing about life in general. Ak was a very special person, and his passing was the loss of a legend.
     
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  8. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 462

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    Blackbob, just looked at the pictures that you put up of your Olds. Looks (except for the holes) stock. Would you lend a hand with stock Olds diminutions?
    Maybe I'd better go somewhere else to put up comparisons?!. How do you feel?
     
  9. Big is an understatement, Carter!!!
    I'll see if I can locate my Olds head and take some pics/measurements this weekend... unless you want to Bob :D
     
  10. Blackbob
    Joined: Nov 19, 2008
    Posts: 177

    Blackbob
    Member


    Hijack away this is great!!!

    I'll get some measurements of the Olds head and post them up :)
     
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  11. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 462

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    THANKS EVERYONE! Now the guy that I bought my first head from said that there were two three port heads. He did not say if that it was where they were cast, or one was used on the Olds and the other was used on the Chevy truck or what. He did say that the better one had a clover leaf cast on the top surface. If we could find out what the other head had cast on it, it would be great. (it may be that the heads were like the chevy blocks in 1925. the Ferro cast blocks could be counted on not to have shifted during poring unlike the company pored.?!
    I just came back in from the shop and loaded 78 pictures on my computer. Have to sort them out. Some are modified Olds heads and some are of the Leroi crank modifications. Yep the snow flew last night, so it is time to show the crank pictures. I'll probably put them on the 28chevy site since it will be going into a 28 block.
     
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  12. Carter
    Joined: Mar 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,522

    Carter
    Member

    Definitely not for sale, never hurts to ask, though!

    @cabong
    Great that you knew Ak, I always wondered what became of that roadster or it's engine.
    Most of the Tornado Chevy heads I've seen period pictures of, including on Lee's own racecars, used a copy of a Ford Frontenac valve cover. The Miller brother's roadster is, in fact, the only one I've seen pictures of that definitely did not. And the valve cover I have is the only one like it that I'm aware of or have seen, and it looks like it could be the one from the Miller brother's car, though there aren't any pictures showing it quite well enough to say for certain. The valve cover, as well as the fact that my head was on a '28 engine when I got it always made me wonder if it could have been from that car.

    IMG_20211028_172956184.jpg

    Thanks for letting us borrow your thread for a bit, @Blackbob !

    I probably should just make a thread about the Tornado Chevy heads.

    Edit: For anyone interested, I've moved the discussion about the Tornado Chevy head to this thread: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...rnado-speed-equipment-definitive-post.180439/

    Sorry again for borrowing your thread, @Blackbob
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2021
  13. Blackbob
    Joined: Nov 19, 2008
    Posts: 177

    Blackbob
    Member

    did a bit of trawling ... 1930-Lee-Chapel-lakes-modified-sm.jpg DBC_1188_Lee-Chapel-Chevy-4-Head.jpg 78387d8c7a3098353b1049ded796fa09.jpg
     
  14. Blackbob
    Joined: Nov 19, 2008
    Posts: 177

    Blackbob
    Member

    some sizes from my stock Olds head
     

    Attached Files:

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  15. Just thinking out loud-

    I'm really looking forward to seeing how much bigger the ports are on the Tornado head (and if a nice porting job would bring a stock Olds head close), but another benefit that I can see is the use of rockers with a better ratio (stock Olds is 1:1).

    Carter, do you know the ratio on the Tornado rockers?

    In regard to the cloverleaf blocks/heads being better- that jives with what Herb told me (and what's been discussed on the early C4 thread).
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2021
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  16. upload_2021-12-17_6-49-43.png

    Totally forgot how close those passages are to the valves... no room for growth :mad::(
     
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  17. Blackbob
    Joined: Nov 19, 2008
    Posts: 177

    Blackbob
    Member

    Same size valve as a stock Model T. The gains come from increased lift and better flow i suppose!
     
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  18. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 462

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    Some of the things about the Tornado that I saw (after the huge ports) were how close the end push rod hole casting was to the end exhaust casting compared to the Olds., The valves are not down in a trough like any of the other heads, the spark plug side of the casting is full height, the spark plug holes look way different. WOW!!!

    Here are the first of my #1 Olds.

    DSCN1033.JPG
    DSCN1034.JPG DSCN1035.JPG DSCN1036.JPG DSCN1038.JPG DSCN1037.JPG

    When I got the#1 you could still see the hacksaw and grinder marks of taking the towers off. (one of the bolt on towers had to be shimmed.0 The rear exhaust flange top was broken off, easy weld and machine. The rear of the head had had big problems. I had the machine shop resurface four sides. They said that the last exhaust valve was in crooked but managed to get it by going a little deeper on the surface of the hardened seat. A lot of the damage looked like heat related, so I did drill the back two water holes. (If you look really closely, you can see where the punch pricks (to hold the head gasket) are still visible.)
     
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  19. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 462

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    Blackbob that pic. of a second Tornado helps tremendously to compare to Carters! I am willing to bet that all of the Tornados were modified to the owners idea of what was best!
    Mac the Yankee, about porting an Olds to the size of the Tornado, The answer is "no" (without knowing the size of Carters)(but I still want to know!) I do not have a digital caliper so will have to write my sizes when I measure again. (forgot first measure, but all are different. Center exhaust is biggest end exhaust smaller, intakes smallest!.?!.?
     
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  20. I'd like to see the valve/spark plug pattern on the bottom of the Tornado head- guessing that Chapel moved things around for bigger valves/better breathing
     
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  21. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 462

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    Mac that's what I was thinking also. What I've seen so far, the Chapel head could be called a "full race only". The designer of the Tornado did a very good job of laying out the casting to improve over the Olds.
     
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  22. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 462

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    The thickness of the head is now 3.675. I am thinking this about the limit depending on if both top and bottom are taken off equally. Here are the next pics. of #1.
    DSCN1039.JPG DSCN1040.JPG
    Exhaust openings . front and rear 1.428
    Middle 1.504
    DSCN1045.JPG DSCN1046.JPG
    intakes 1.509, 1.50

    Both intakes and exhaust ports were just opened up from the outside strait in with no blending. I did some blending, but was not sure how much "meat" that I had to work with. Before running, I'll do some more.

    DSCN1041.JPG

    Valve relief 1.518 all, seat max 1.796 all (with hardened inserts)
    Valves stim 0.34, head 1.73, length 4.916 (with valve guides installed. The machinist that specked these valves said that they were Ford 427 exhaust "Cobra jet" the head had been taken out so far. All valves the same.

    The seller of this head said that I would have to put it on an over bored block, and would have to move it around to make sure that all valves would fit in the bores!
     

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  23. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 462

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    More of #1 Olds.

    DSCN1048.JPG DSCN1049.JPG
    Here is how the guides ended up, with a little bit of my blending. Could use a lot more opened up.

    DSCN1050.JPG DSCN1051.JPG

    This is the rockers that came with #1 They are 1.5:1 and fairly heavy, and tight on the shaft. The seller thought that they were Nash, but was not sure.

    DSCN1052.JPG DSCN1053.JPG
    This is what I came up with. 1.7:1 and I got an additional 0.02 by offset grinding the shoe and moving the pivot location. The rockers are from a mid 50's International truck "big block" six. Part number 58446H They are mounted on a hollow .875 shaft for oiling.
     
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  24. Blackbob
    Joined: Nov 19, 2008
    Posts: 177

    Blackbob
    Member

    Really useful info here Gaby, thanks for sharing, I'll get a measure of the head thickness today. Mine will need milled down on top and a cover plate or two separate ones either welded or bolted and bonded on to cover the two holes. I'll be milling the rocker supports down anyway. Hell knows how much the combustion face has been milled already!

    The T block is on stock 3.75" bore, already more than a '28 Chevy but my '28 Chevy is bored out to take oversize Model A slugs so these mods would work with that so i might use the '28 head with the T and the Olds with the bored out '28 Chev... time will tell!
     
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  25. Blackbob
    Joined: Nov 19, 2008
    Posts: 177

    Blackbob
    Member

    My Olds head measures up at an average of 3.750" thick so working on the assumption that its never been skimmed
     
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  26. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 462

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    BB I just checked my #2 Olds information. It is 3.75 with both top and combustion sides cleaned up. So just guessing on how much was there when new. Mac, or anyone else with an Olds head please chime in.

    More of #1

    DSCN1054.JPG DSCN1055.JPG
    Here is the plate that I made to be able to put a sealing valve cover on. I think 1/4". Notice the height of the valve guides, they are pretty low. I was very worried that valve seals would not be enough to keep from sucking oil down the intake valves.

    DSCN1056.JPG DSCN1057.JPG
    I had laid out positions to put drains in the side of the head but could not get myself to do it. Each penetration had to go through the water jacket. So, I left a gap between the tower and top plate into each valve depression to drain back to a push rod hole. (#4 intake and #3 intake gaps shown)
     
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  27. grumpy gaby 2
    Joined: Aug 10, 2019
    Posts: 462

    grumpy gaby 2
    Member

    First pics of #2 modified Olds head. This head came on the "miget 28 engine from Rich Fox. Rich had put up inf and pics on the 28 chevy site.
    A few comments here. This head had been set up to run alcohol not gasoline. Rich did not think that gasoline should be run without putting in hard seats. (ported around valve heads to close) Also, I should add that Rich was working on this head when he was diagnosed or had trouble with cancer. You can visually. see where things were not finished, or not thought through. (I will have to measure the top thickness through those bolt holes.)
    DSCN1058.JPG DSCN1058.JPG
    This head has also been modified several times. I thought that Rich had said that he had used VW valves, but no. VW valve springs to get close to 60# on the seat.

    DSCN1060.JPG DSCN1060.JPG DSCN1061.JPG
    Sorry about the dbl. (fat finger) Rich ha a good idea to control loss oil on the push rods. The added tubes will keep it off of the exhaust. I am going to add at least two more for the center exhaust. The length that the tubes will work good on a 28 Chevy block with side covers. (Existing 3.75 tall)

    DSCN1062.JPG DSCN1063.JPG DSCN1076.JPG
    The valves turned out to be the same valve that was in #1 head, but not modified the same. (#1 head valve at the top #2 head valve at the bottom.) Both heads had been taken almost too far, and both intake and exhaust the same.
    The valves for #2 are stim .34, head 1.805***, length 5.098
    DSCN1072.JPG DSCN1073.JPG
    *** The 1.805 valve heads will not fit though the head gasket!!!! (I set a std 261 piston (3.75) on the gasket with plenty of room!) These valves will need to be trimmed to1.73.
    This head has only one hardened seat (#4 exhaust) I will have hard seats put in and trim the valve heads.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 18, 2021
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  28. Blackbob
    Joined: Nov 19, 2008
    Posts: 177

    Blackbob
    Member

    this is great info, i'm not sure how modified i should take my Olds head as yet, if its going on the T the limitations are set by the stock T bottom end, if that's beefed up with an A crank or even better a counterbalanced and pressure fed SCAT crank to A spec I'd be confident in going much further. Fast road, sprint and UK type (twisty road) hillclimbs and off road trials are most likely the end use , so petrol fuelled rather than alcohol.
     
  29. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 650

    guitarguy
    Member

    I know what the caption says, but that roadster sure as heck looks like it has a Frontenac Valve cover on it, and so I would assume Fronty head also. Also the caption says dual carbs, but it clearly is running 1 updraft carb,, but being a dual port intake, I would assume Fronty SR head. Could it have been Ford powered at first? Could it have been an earlier pics but perhaps with a up to date caption of the latest engine?
     
  30. Blackbob
    Joined: Nov 19, 2008
    Posts: 177

    Blackbob
    Member

    Quite possibly, photos and captions don't always tell the true tale in the press even today.. i'll re word that .. especially today ;)
     

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