Technical Synthetic Oil verses conventional motor oil.

Ah, but what if you could have both? But, OTOH, good for you for being satisfied with the good luck you already have.

 

I think,I'm old an a bit set in my ways, going on 80 YO;
So no on syn. ,I don't buy the extra big $ stuff, I do buy Val VR1/has zink needed for my old flat-tappet cam crap.
And as for syn. last longer,for me no!.
I like cutting open the filter each time anything happens or every 6 months or so> A tell-all some times.,
So that makes time for new oil n filter at least every year.=No way near used up date for norm type oil,if not full of water ,gas or other stuff it should not have in it.
For those that don't check there old engines often,could be big $ syn. oil is a thing,

 

Synthetics used for engine oils are typically what we call "Synthetic Hydrocarbons", that is the molecules that make up the base oil are synthetic in nature but resemble natural hydrocarbons found in crude oil. There are synthetic ester base oils, which are different in nature, but they are rare for passenger car engine oils (though they are used as carriers for additives and as seal swell agents).

There are basically 2 different types of synthetic hydrocarbons used in automotive engine oils, polyalphaolefin (PAO) and highly refined Group III base oils.

PAO's are created by polymerization of smaller molecules (taken from the light ends of the crude boiled off in the distillation tower) into larger molecules of a specific shape and size to arrive at the particular characteristics wanted. Natural hydrocarbons can be arranged in millions of different ways, different sizes and shapes. So in any mineral oil product the hydrocarbons are refined to down to fairly similar shapes and sizes, but differences in them remains. Not so with PAO's, they are all very consistent in size and shape. This is why PAO's can have such great viscometric properties, they have much lower pour points when cold (no wax crystals to coagulate and increase in viscosity), and they retain their viscosity under high temperatures. We call this the Viscosity Index. A high quality paraffin base oil will have a viscosity index of ~100 - 120. A PAO base oil will have a viscosity index of ~120 - 160. Note there are dozens of different types of PAO's, with different properties. The uniform size and shape is also why PAO's have greater lubricity properties (more slippery), and can improve efficiency (improve gas mileage). This can also reduce operating temperature as there is less shearing of the hydrocarbons when flowing. But PAO's have poor solvency (they don't solubolize additives very well), and they are harsh on elastomeric seals and can dry and shrink them. Seal swell agents need to be added to counter that. I believe that is why early synthetic motor oils caused so many leaks and developed a bad reputation for leaks that they are still known for today. I don't see this problem and haven't for a long time, but first impressions are hard to get past.

Group III base oils are highly refined mineral oils. The API groups base oils into 5 different groups (PAO's are Group IV), Groups I - III are all made from paraffinic crude oils, they differ in sulfur content, level of saturates, and viscosity index. Group III's are the highest performing of the 3 groups, Group I is comparatively low grade solvent refined base oil, no longer usable in modern API licensed engine oils, but was common in all engine oils up through the 80's -90's. That is all that was available for HAMB era cars. Group II is what is used today for non-synthetic motor oils; and Group III oils undergo such a harsh refining process of hydrocracking that they are considered synthetic, though there was a big fight over this in the industry, settled in a law suit between Mobil and Castrol, where the court said that there was really nothing left of the natural hydrocarbon after the hydrocracking process and that it met the dictionary definition of the word "Synthetic". Once that was settled it seems everyone in the industry has jumped on-board and everyone uses Group III base oils and calls their product Synthetic. Group III base oils have slightly lower performance than PAO's, slightly lower viscosity index (can be made up for with pour point improvers and viscosity index improvers), and slightly less resistance to oxidation (shorter service interval), for instance; but they have greater solvency and are kinder on seals. In any case they are far superior to the old Group I solvent refined base oils. Remember how motor oils used to oxidize and leave lacquer and varnish deposits in engines, and if you didn't change the oil it turned into a thick sludge buildup on the top of cylinder heads and in the lifter valley and oil pan? That doesn't really happen with Group III or PAO synthetic motor oils. You can run them a long time and they remain suitable for use. It really is a different technology than the old days.

Note: new Gas to Liquids (GTL) technology allows the creation of very high performing Group III base oils, potentially even better than PAO's. And Shell spent a few million dollars building a refinery in Qatar with GTL technology, so these base oils are available and in the market today.

So what "synthetic" technology are you getting when you buy a bottle of synthetic motor oil? And do you care? What is really important is the fully blended oil. You can use the best synthetic oil in the world, but if not blended with the right additive package it won't perform worth crap. The additive package is really everything, IMO. That's why I said in my previous post I don't use synthetic oils. There's nothing wrong with using them, and they do have advantages, but for most of us a modern mineral engine oil with Group II base oil and good additive package will get all the performance we need. We really won't get the added performance potential from the synthetic base oil. Exceptions might be those who use their cars as a daily driver and want to extend their oil change intervals out beyond say 7000 or 8000 miles. Maybe you run around 10,000 - 20,000 miles a year and only want to change the oil once a year. Synthetics would be the way to go for that. Or, say you live in an area with very wide temperature ranges, you might see temps go from close to freezing over night to over 100F in the afternoon (I've seen this in AZ), maybe a synthetic would make sense. Or if you've got a turbo-charged engine; the oil that lubricates the bearing in the turbo can see really high temps, synthetic is not a bad idea for that. Or if you live in the far northern reaches and experience sub-zero temperatures on a regular basis, and you want to drive your HAMB era car in those temps, synthetic may be the way to go. Or if you just want the best for your baby and don't mind spending a few extra dollars. Go for it. You won't hurt anything except your wallet, and if you're OK with that, that's all that matters.

One thing, in the case of a break down, say you have an overheating condition. The fact that you have synthetic engine oil in the crankcase may just save your engine from having a lubrication failure from over-heated oil. I've seen engine oils that have gotten so hot the base oil cracked, that's not good for the bearings.

 

You know, I wonder if this is based on any controlled testing, or just anecdotal evidence. I personally don't know, so I've stayed away from commenting on it. Just wondering where this comes from, anecdotal experience or controlled tests.

 

Yeah I always thought synthetic made good sense if I lived in Saskatoon or Alaska and extended operation below zero. F that, I'm stayin' inside by the fire.

@Blues4U in the .mil we went through a LOT of 23699 for turbine engines. I don't know if it was synthetic. It was pretty light viscosity. Came in a green quart can, and I'm sure the government paid too much for it. "May Contain (don't they know for sure?) Tricresyl Phosphate." printed on the top. I believe it was used in gearboxes and transmissions as well. Gallons and gallons and gallons...

 

That would be a synthetic ester base oil. Very high performance oil, with wide, wide temperature range, with almost no tendency toward deposits, the turbines remain exceptionally clean, pretty much a requirement for aircraft. It may be overkill in gearboxes and transmissions, but the military likes to consolidate products as much as possible, for obvious reasons.

"MIL-PRF-23699G, PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATION: LUBRICATING OIL, AIRCRAFT TURBINE ENGINE, SYNTHETIC BASE, NATO CODE NUMBERS: O-152, O-154, O-156, and O-167 (13-MAR-2014)., This specification covers four classes of gas turbine engine lubricating oils, primarily used for aircraft engines, which have a nominal viscosity of 5 centistokes at 100 �C and which are typically made with neopentyl polyol ester base stocks. This oil is identified by NATO Code Numbers O-152, O-154, O-156, and O-167."

 

Thank you Blues4U, you answered several questions I had about my new daily driver and what to use.

 

Quality info in this thread.
Cooler running temps, longer change intervals and CLEANLINESS.
This is the inside of my 200,000 mile 292.9 cu inch mill. Always run on synthetic. Never had an orange earl filter on her either.
Clean as a Safeway chicken.

 

Regarding engines with synthetic oil from the factory; most if not all "modern" engines delivered with synthetic oil in them have their rings seated after the short block is assembled right there on the line using an electric or hydraulic motor to spin them before they're finished and put in a vehicle. Synthetic is really great for extreme high or low temperatures which is why it's used in turbine engines.

 

Hopefully cleaner...

 

I still use organic oil. Because I hate dinosaurs.

Back in the beginning of synthetic motor oils (as in common market ) synthetic oils were not compatible so unless you had a new engine that had not yet had oil in it you were really pretty much screwed when it came to synthetic. I think that the newer synthetic oils are compatible or more compatible than before.

I have read reviews stateing that synthetic oils robbed less torque that organic oils. So that being the case you could in theory get better mileage and performance just by changing over. I got an idea that the difference is so minor that it really does not make much difference.

I will give synthetic oil this. In an air cooled engine certain synthetic oils will allow the engine to run cooler. This I have actually witnessed personally. I have not converted to synthetic oil in my own aor cooled engine but I do know this to be true.

 

A friend of mine was working at a parts store when synthetics showed up. He had a customer that had a car lot with "low end" cars and started buying the new oil. My friend asked him why he paid the premium price for oil for his old beaters and the customer told him "They don't smoke on synthetic". I don't know if this is true or not, I just always thought it was funny.

Gary

 

I think those are applied to aluminum directly, so not applicable to cast iron lined aluminum engines.

Pics or it didn't happen!

 

You asked for it! (It's my buddy Dick)

 

Lloyd, Lloyd, Lloyd.

 

That man is a legend, and most doesn't know who he is. Those screamin eagle Harley Davidson's exist because of him. He was a nitro crew chief all through the 60's, and he was the first person that Byron Hines thanked during his induction into the NHRA hall of fame. Dr. Speed.

 

'Conventional' motor oil has been in production prior to our having electric power in our homes, before we had airplanes, before we had cars, before we had refrigeration, or computers. It's old technology. Does it still work? Of course it does. Just like the use of horses as transportation, ice-boxes for food storage, or an abacus instead of a hand-held calculator, they still work, but just not quite as efficiently ...

 

So is synthetic oil traditional?

 

...something about Germans in WWII.....

No, it's not.

 

Since synthetic oil is over 90 years old .... yep.
Synthetic oil was developed in 1929 and has been used in everything from daily-driver and high-performance vehicles to jets.

 

Friedrich Bergius

1913

 

Buggy whips were around long before hot rods, but they're not part of traditional hot rodding, either.

 

"YEAH HA!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

I only use Valvoline VR-1 racing oil 20/50. Non-synthetic. Been running in my flatheads for many years.

 

My first crankcase full of synthetic (Mobile 1) was in '68. I remember being pleasantly surprised at how clean my engine was inside after using it. I liked it just for that reason. Buybuy varnish and sludge.
I still changed my oil at regular intervals. That ol' varnish and sludge had to be going somewhere.

I'm not a scientist but I did stay in a Holiday Inn where a real scientist once stayed a couple of years before I did.
..

 

To me its a simple choice.
I know that upon initial startup a newly built engine will most likely produce the most friction its going to produce due to the need for new parts to wear in and seat with each other. For that initial break in period, I am going to use one of the brands of oil specifically designed to assist that break in period. I do not know if the slickness of synthetic will/can prevent rings seating, but I know that the special breakin oil will not only "not limit" ring seating but will actually assist it. If I just spent thousands of dollars buying components (or even a cheap rering), and hours and hours of my time properly removing/tearing down/cleaning/testing/measuring/reassembling an engine...........why in the world would I skimp on $50 for some oil designed specifically for a purpose? I already have a case of breakin oil sitting on the shelf for my next assembly, and a couple of shelves full of several different viscosities of Mobil 1 synthetic to use after the breakin. (Every time I go to Walmart I pick up a jug of Mobil 1 and add it to my collection)

Why do I use synthetic oil. Very simply the purpose of oil is to reduce friction and even reduce heat. The oil that is the slickest reduces friction the most and therefore wear. While there are exceptions when people religiously change their fossil fuel oil, engines tend to last a lot longer these days........and that due in large part to better oils in them. I remember when an engine with 100,000 miles was considered a "high" mileage engine and probably needed to be "refreshed" before installation. Today, there are a lot of engines going two or three times that far with the original rings and bearings. No, its not "JUST" oil that does it, but no one can argue that the less friction being generated the better . Synthetic oils are slicker and don't require changing as often.

Now none of this means that your engine can't survive and run a long time using other oils and other breakin methods......but to me its logical to protect my investment with the best oils available for each purpose.

 

Someone still has to decide which is " best" , that leaves the field wide open . what criteria does one use to make these decisions ? Experience , experts , advertising , brand loyalty , here say , an internet forum , a magazine article , a mechanic, an engine builder , a lubrication specialist ,gut feeling ?....muddy waters !

 

Muddy Waters gets my vote ! LoL .

The only problem with some older engines is the synthetic will leak around some seals in a bad way .
Not on all the engines ,,,,but it does happen .
You can always go back if it leaks .

However,,,I have found the synthetic still needs to be changed on a regular basis,,,,,,it still gets dirty from the fuel your running .
Old engines that were run on propane or natural gas are very clean inside,,,,,and they were using regular motor oil .

Tommy

 

This may have been posted here before, it is a good read.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

 

Some thoughts on cam and lifter wear by Camcraft Performance Cams:
"..Another significant factor is the increased use of synthetic oil. While some synthetic oil works ok with flat tappet cams, many do not. Never break in a fresh engine with synthetic oil. There are no cam grinders that I know of that recommend the use of any synthetic oil with flat tappet cams. The use of synthetics is primarily needed in very high temperature or low temperature applications. If you properly control the oil temperature you have less need for synthetics. Several of our customers add 2 quarts of conventional oil to their synthetic oil with good results."
https://www.camcraftcams.com/some-thoughts-on-cam-and-lifter-wear/