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Technical Meet Flo !

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Flathead Freddie, Sep 7, 2021.

  1. Mart
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 4,893

    Mart
    Member

    Hello. I am the English guy.
    I had to drill some out.
    I modified a cheap pillar drill to make a poor man's mag drill and was able to drill some studs out. If weld don't work, drilling might.
    I took a broken 3/8 stud out today and couldn't do it by welding. Had to drill it out to core size and carefully retap.
    Re broken taps or eezi-outs. I watched a video today (another English Guy) where he used a diamond tipped hole saw to remove the broken tap. I thought that was pretty slick.
    Good luck with it.
    For what it is worth the received knowledge re flathead head stud holes is not to run a tap through. A thread cleaning type tool is preferred as the holes are tapped by Ford tighter than commonly available taps.

    Mart. The English Guy.
     
  2. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
     
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  3. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Hi Mart , I tooled up yesterday and yes deeply imbedded in me is that factory threads should always be as day one . I do know of guys who tighten head bolts after each run and I know of guys who have run their initial torque process for 40 years without touching a head stud or bolt ! I grieve for my friends acquaintances and clients who's flathead rebuilds last only 35k miles . There are many factors to consider . Cleanliness , past service log history and who's foot is on the throttle , the material properties of the bolts , are threads bent out of shape or bolts/studs ductility ( physical properties ) out of specs condition of deck has block been overheated or harboring harmful solvents . I recall my 221 the head studs were actually crystalized and out of the 11of those ( all located by exhaust runners ) only 3 had to be helicoiled ( thread inserts ) and one I had a special bolt made with additional threads for two inserts cause the block material at bottom of the bolt hole was also crystallizing . That bolt was done in 1975 and still holds today . Also an issue was crystallized exhaust bolts broken off and we saved that block and it still runs on the rebuild from 1975 . I was 12 at the time and it took me 12 months . My Indy Champ engine building uncle Dick Jones and my grandfather Bill Rogers taught me how to do it and I am showing how I am doing this without heat and my goal Mart is to save the factory threads . I am giving them a chance and does not mean I am going to be successful but you never know till you give it all so I picked up a straight fluted carbide machinists drill bit sized 9/32 " and a handful of Dremel burr and engraving bits and yesterday went to Shamrock Industrial Supply to try my luck with a set of 3 Proto diamond shape , half round shape and a regular chisel bit . Some call it monotonous I call it art . So we see how this all goes . It's along the same process as with the pistons - destroy and remove . Such a lovely chess game indeed . Well Mart time to get with the say and right now Flo's bolt area is going through the penetrating oil step today and plan on getting back on it in a day or two . Freddie I'm in thought over the trapped idler gear shaft and I do still stuck to the rules of the projects - No heat and No garage chemicals or Electrolysis . Everyone have a nice day
     
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  4. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Hi Everyone , hope you have a grand and safe weekend as things on my side of the country are opening up some hope same for you or soon .
    Used the half round chisel with the 4 pounder and got a start on collapsing the edge of the bolt stub and started thinking if I can find a machinist awl and grab more and cave in then rounded chisel then cave in . So going to stop now before I get carried away with too big of a bit . The trick is to keep a working curled edge . You loose that curled edge you gotta start a new one and yes penetrant and if luck strike just may start turning and fish out the pieces . So going to soak the stubs again and see about a machinist awl or something pointed and hardened to work between the stub and the block . That wire wheel cost $13 it's a high speed fine but sure made the flywheel and clutch look nice and cleaned up the mid deck nice too . Nice weekend to all and thank you much for showing interest and replies and sharing your knowledge . Great stuff indeed .
     

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  5. buick bill
    Joined: Dec 18, 2008
    Posts: 856

    buick bill
    Member
    from yreka;ca

    thats a really big hammer ! i always use a mix of 2/3 diesel 1/3 laquer thinner . try it youl like it . saved many engines from the scrap pile for me !!
     
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  6. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Yes it is a big hammer I choke up on the handle and just rock it , also using a dead blow , 1 1/2 lb brass , body hammers , rawhide and a couple different sized rubber mallets . The 4 pounder for me I just tap and has right amount of crush for the metals I'm working with . A couple shops I've seen use deisel and some mix it in their solvent tank solution , deisel also has protective qualities which are excellent I have used it many times in engine rooms on ships and next time out I will bring along some lacquer thinner ( if it's allowed in California lol ) . Thank you for the tip and have a nice day
     
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  7. Jacksmith
    Joined: Sep 24, 2009
    Posts: 1,565

    Jacksmith
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Aridzona

    I HATE when that happens!!! I try to use the "3-P" method: Patience, Perseverance and Penetrating oil.
     
  8. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Gets best possible results for sure . Indeed I don't expect Hollywood perfect but we are getting there with plenty of the 3P's at the rate of a sliver at a time . Took the weekend off the 2 projects take care of some clients cars everyone happy so back to Freddie and Flo's Parlor sometime Monday . After soaking for the weekend I'm going to set on a #4 Easyout and see 8d I can get a groan by bending the Easyout back and forth . Bolt is thinner now 3/32 " on each wall which is still quite a bit so we see . Thank you Jacksmith
     
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  9. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Hi to Everyone ! Happy to be moving in the right direction . Hope everyone else is same ! So just got bolt carcass to collapse 8nward away from the original threads about 5/32 " deep . I thinned out the bolts wall by bracing and very slow and with low drill RPMs using a 5/16 twist drill . After that I took a #62 high speed bit to the wall to give it a relief area about 5/32 " deep . I broke that little bit in there but doesn't matter it put a slice in the bolt wall enabling me to make an indent with a pin punch then peeling away with the half round drill bit . So its off to a good start going to penetrate and come back tomorrow and go a little deeper . Time to go check the mail for a headlight delivery from Lostmind , it's always exciting to get a real original part in the mail . Well it's happening and how deep and what shape threads will be in we don't know yet so have a good evening
     

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  10. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Good day Everyone ! There is bolt carcass separation ! I did heat the hole for about 10 seconds with a propane unit so it stayed around 500 degrees let it cool about 20 seconds then sprayed the Deep Creep in there and took an Easy Out #5 on REAL 10" flat jawed Vise Grips and twisted back and forth with force ( engine was rocking ) for about 3-5 minutes till I'd had enough then started caving in the carcass working on one side only ( 8-9 o'clock area ) with the 4 pounder and half round chisel and the square wedge chisel . I start at a steep angle almost 45 you can feel the chisel dig in then you straighten the chisel as you go so you don't eat threads to much . This caves it in and causes the other side of the carcass to follow it and look at the picture folks we have a winner ! You can see how a chunk of the carcass separated from the threads and I'm going to stop and think about what the next step should be . Yes those are 1953 threads ! I'm going to just clean up Flo some more with the 280 and 500 Emory Cloth working well on all the decks . I figure that's the Ghost of Henry bringing the luck !
    Everyone have a nice evening
     

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  11. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Hi Everyone , may I announce ! THE MOMENT YOUVE BEEN WAITING FOR !!
    It's out !! O..U..T or perhaps threads are clear the carcass is in the block still and fishing it out us fun broke a pair of 99cent pliers and bent a pair of those orange handled miniatures from our trusty store of hate and love called Harbor Freight . So here are the threads non touched just as they are . I'll worry about the carcass upon clearing the coolant passages . I really want to show it to you to give an idea of how much you have to drill off and how important it is to consider the threads ridge height times 2 when choosing drill bits .
    Everyone have a real good evening !
     

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  12. Mart
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 4,893

    Mart
    Member

    I made a home made version of a mag drill. That helped a lot when drilling down through the center of the stud remnant. If you're confident of being on center and straight you can be braver with the drill diameter. The bigger the hole the easier to pick out the remnants of the thread.
    Mart.
     
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  13. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Hi Mart , on an earlier reply you say you use thread inserts on your drill outs . ???
     
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  14. Mart
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 4,893

    Mart
    Member

    No. Hopefully the original thread can be revived.
    I have had to resort to an insert on one occasion but not recently.
     
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  15. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    That's good Mart on saving integrity glad we on same page . When I get to the other deck I have one sunk deep . Started on the second stub for hole started square and the mag drill well I've been doing this for so long I get a thrill out of freehanding it . In an earlier post I mention I'm a Sidecarcross Monkey and I have worked on oil tanker ships so I do this in the field freehand and all its a great art and I love showing it makes the boss sweat and always a wager amongst the crew and yes some bolts take all day and plenty of rust on a ship but usually I save a costly repair . I did drill off on one bolt cause I used too big a bit to start . I will straighten it out with Dremel barrel bits . It will be ok I'm sure . I learned this from an uncle and my grandfather it's quite an art and glad to share it with you and thank you for sharing your art with me Mart and same with Everyone
     
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  16. Mart
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 4,893

    Mart
    Member

    Freddie, I looked back and found the videos where I was experimenting using various techniques for stud removal. people report success with blowing them out with oxy acetylene, but my one and only attempt was a dismal failure.
    I cover my journey in 3 videos.


     
  17. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,174

    Budget36
    Member

    My dad was a master with a torch. Me, butcher when it came to things like that.
    We had a stud in his ‘69 Peterbuilt radiator that was stripped out.
    I said “we’re fucked” he said get the torch.
    He rolled under the truck, laying on his back and torched the stud out. Me? I’d have been looking at buying a new radiator after the carnage I would have inflicted;).
     
  18. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Hi Mart and Everyone , glad to have made time and sit in a quiet place to watch all three videos and may I say , " Great going Mart ! " Any way you do it it takes a persevering character and Erika tells me Flathead Fever to actually accomplish this . On the Oxyacetylene as soon as I saw the llloooonngg tail I said , " Oh No ! " . Perhaps Budget36 can recall the controlled flame when his dad ' Blew them out ' . Also a small #1 tip I use and get your oxygen right or the kerf ( cutting area ) will bell shape on you . Heat till you form a molten ball and hit the lever while your bracing all your doing is drilling with a cutting torch so get it straight in the beginning and keep if still while pulling the lever . The pop you hear when shutting down well turn your gas off first and if it still pops clean your tip or replace it . Just remember heat crystalizes cast iron because it is porous and absorbs heat and takes on all the contaminates your creating with acetylene . Also are you preheating before playing with your cast iron beauty ? And are you cooling down properly afterwards ? That hole you blew out I can braze it AFTER I preheat your block and cool it down . Lots of Science means lots of discrepancies and higher risks in the Metalurgy world so I bypass all that science and make like the Neanderthal I am and have fun with the 4 pounder and my HalfRound Proto Chisel . No heat no damage . Question is can one do this all the time . Like Budget36 says his dad is an Ace with a torch and one sneeze or even a breathe can do you in . Try it on a block split open you can learn and knock them out in 10 minutes but I would preheat and cool down . There is a gel you can buy to keep the heat in one area but heat on cast to me is just bad science for an engine I wanna run for over 75k without lifting a head . I am taking all precautions and would like to leave the house with Flo and with my torque wrench in the garage not under the driver's seat . I just don't like it then again I can fish the stubs out with prehistoric hand tools .
    Yes you have to get the stub as hollow as possible and I explain twice on this thread the drill size formula it's simple same formula for any size bolt . You have to thin the wall to nothing to get it out however you choose . Heat and penetration yes and yes but I only use a propane torch for about 10 seconds pointing it at the bolt area from inside the water jacket . I want to expand the block just about 2 microns tiny tiny bit . Then as its cooling I apply the penetrant so it will get thru to the threads like Mart shows on the video . With separation , penetrant and a strength compromised bolt stub it will come out and save your original threads Is say 9 out of ten I'd not all the time . Crystallized is different than rusty those I hope not to encounter on Freddie or Flo but find predominant on the 221s . These are 8BA engines both cast in "53 . That's all for now got Erika's Birthday and a couple customers so I be back next week . I salute all you Veterans and those with relations in United States Armed Forces and definitely keep your foot in it .
     
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  19. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Good day Everyone ! , one thing I like about an engine revival project is theee is always about ten things to do as the project gets closer to a bench test . A big tree and some chain works for some .
    Yes I'm still playing with a couple broken head bolts and of course the objective here is to get the heads on . Well why don't I just do that ??! Because while the engine is apart it's my only chance to assemble it to ' As New Condition As Possible . " Well for me alot of things are possible including a bolt going where it came from so I map my head bolts so threads match up snug and smooth and I don't use oils in my head bolt threads . The bottle brush put out by Lysol that you see in the picture is working just fine . I search for head bolts that are new and from era on vintage equipment I work on and if not available I am considering a complete new set from Dennis Carpenter for $99 or Mac's at $199 . I've yet to call them and ask where they come from and all but I'm not completely secure with Flo's head bolts but am going to clean them by hand today and inspect these bolts . One peculiar thing with Flo is the four studs ( not bolts ) someone installed in the block on the top row of each deck . Interesting and convenient for installing heads or are they factory ? I don't think so and their integrity is excellent so I'm keeping them in the block . So today is working on a broken stub and cleaning threads with the bottle brush and clean up the head on the left bank with the 280 and 500 Emery Cloth and search for some new head bolts that are new from 1949 to about 1965 . Have a nice day and keep your foot in it
     

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  20. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    This is the stub from last week I'm finishing it up now , it wasn't so easy as the first because I should have sharpened and hardened the half round chisel earlier so now I have and only took three hammer taps to cut the carcass loose and am now pushing the remains out the bottom into the water jacket area where it will be fished out either by magnet or tipping the block later . Now ready for a thread chaser , tried a bolt and cleaned up some but hanging up about 3 threads down then looks pretty clear so fine there it's out with most threads intact I get a thread chaser on the first of December so onward to the next one and on it Ive An idea since I found a piece of Titanium pipe laying around and it's ID in a snug fit over the broken stub so can use it as a sleeve if I choose or can I do a third and fourth straight and square and centered by eye and a steady arm ? Gee I just love doing these by freehand . A swell evening for all
     

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  21. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    ... next is to clean the accumulator area to upper ring with a 005 " feeler gauge so I can turn the engine over . Been keeping the cylinders oiled since September so cleared out the dirty oil puddles in each cylinder with a new shop rag and cylinders walls have been absorbing 10/30 well . The worst cylinder walls at the moment are cyl 1. I don't like it it's a duvet beyond .002 " but maybe I can blend it in don't know till I compression or leak test it . Been cleaning for an hour or so in the upper piston area so feeler gauge is smooth going now no hangups or dirt specks hanging it up you can sé the rag every specknout of there makes a difference . Going to do it again and again till the oil I squirt in there comes clean the next day . So polishing up the piston top s with 00 then 0000 steel wool . So this is it for today maybe tinker with the 3" Steel wire wheel on the outside so a Good Evening for Everyone
     

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  22. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Hi Everyone , today is simple and just cleaning as I am searching for new head bolts lost on someone garage shelf . I give these things time if not found in a couple weeks I will get a set from Dennis Carpenter . Cleaning is and has been at hand so a little 280 and 500 on the head surface today and wire brush then 2500 on the bellhousing . I was going to paint it to match the Speedster but I can't paint over this it's 68 good years and amazing how Flo cleaned up with just a Lincoln Carbon Wire Brush and the 3" Fine Steel wire wheel then 2500 on just the bellhousing . No water chemicals soaps . The broken stubs can wait I'm penetrating more and having fun today with the Emory Cloth . A good day to Everyone keep your foot in it and have some fun !
     
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  23. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Just started the middle of head surface and braided wire wheel is for combustion chambers
     

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  24. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    So right bank head surface is ready 320 and 500 . Maybe I use a drybpolish pad for kicks
     

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  25. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,442

    Boneyard51
    Member

    While I have never removed a broken bolt in a Flathead, I have removed a ton of them in the Fire service. My method is very similar to Marts, but has a few differences. I drill a hole in the center of the broken stud about 1/3 the diameter of the stud. I drill down about 3/8 inch. I use a nut that is a little larger than the stud, then using a stick welder I fill the nut up with molten metal, concentrating the heat at first on the stud. When I get through welding , the nut is cherry red and the stud is probably too, can’t really see it. Then I let it cool , completely. Then I apply some penetrating oil and try to loosen the stud/ bolt with a wrench or tee handle and socket. The extreme heat on the stud and filling the nut heats and expands the broken bolt. When it cools it contracts and hopefully breaks away from the surrounding metal. I have removed many many broken bolts in fire pumps using this method over the years. Some even broken off below the surface. Just my way!






    Bones
     
  26. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

     
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  27. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    This is the story of a Flattie named Flo ,
    Let her rust outside then we bring her back to life ...

    Kicks and tricks ! That's what restoring and hotrodding is all about ! And a whole lot of fun and enjoyment . Everyone keep your foot in it and have a grand weekend
     

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  28. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Projects can overrun your life and for most of us that's called sacrifice for something positive that really does bring happiness to many people around us and those we meet on the road or at a meet or even at the grocers parking lot .
    There has been a lot of wonderful activity in what I call The Idependant Automotive World as we scurry to leave behind the confusion of Covid and the ensuing politics which has downed this country .
    Erika and I spoke a little of it and to help put things back on the right track I've chosen to give Flo and Freddie a rest till after Christmas Season and concentrate efforts on the Spirit of The Christmas Season . Whatever that includes is up to whatever may happen which is positive and of course helpful to those who are really in need .
    Erika and I wish Everyone and your families a delightful and heart warming Christmas and may all of you be safe , healthy and filled with Christmas Spirit in your heart .

    Merry Christmas to all our Friends of HAMB , Anthony & Erika
     
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  29. Flathead Freddie
    Joined: May 9, 2021
    Posts: 806

    Flathead Freddie
    Member

    Alright Everyone !!

    Flo is back on the work station so just reaquanting with the project again I've done a little more cleanup on her and anticipating a compression test so to make that happen we need some head bolts holes cleared and while descaling the water jackets I inspected the right bank found two cracks at mid deck at the famous water jacket holes between cyl 1 &2 and the other between cyl 3 & 4 . They are definite leakers so any suggestions would be kindly appreciated I'll take picture of each for you in order front one then the back one . Also noticed someone's shoddy work with a drill ya it went off-center on me last year so going to churn it out with the Dremel then drill again straighter of course . When these biolts crystalize they impossible to drill straight and so I just stop drilling and break it down to a thin wall then chip it off with the rounded chisel The 3/8 " one is now larger head than before from sharpening it I may buy another or add meat on the head with the flux Core and it'll be hardened from the weld might be a better idea . So here is the picture of that hole and please take note of the Barrel head Bits for the Dremel .
    Now recall Flo has some nifty studs in her great for hanging gaskets in place and hanging heads in place great job someone did they are solid they look like a high carbon stud How do ya like that exhaust manifold so got a big rust cloud from that and got my fill of old iron today lol . Everyone have a good day and keep your foot in it a good day
     

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  30. Those are what they call P/N cracks,,,,,,,,so many Flathead engines had those cracks,,,,,,,Ford should have issued a part number for them .
    Those cracks won’t hurt a thing,,,,,,,won’t leak either .

    Tommy
     
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