Technical B&M Hydro-Stick Hydrostick

Please keep us informed!!

 

Atta boy..... try to get every little thing that you can, outside shift levers, dipstick/tube, yoke or a piece of the driveshaft, anything that even looks remotely related. It ain't easy to get all the little stuff anymore. Hanging around here with your eyes and ears open sure helps.

 

Congrats. As long as the case isn't exploded and you can get it adapted to your engine it's hard to go wrong with these grand old machines.

 

So here she is! Yup its the one that's has been on EBay for over a year now. L53 Flat pan for a 1952 1953 1954 Lincoln Y Block. I contacted the seller and asked if he'd sell it without the bell housing. he replied yes and I made him a offer of 600.00 for it minus the bell housing and now its mine. It also has both a brazed driven and drive torus which have been modified for a high stall.

 

I have a b&m hydro stick stashed back it is a blown competition unit I have the Chevy bell housing and a still in the box shifter the only thing that was not with the unit when I got it was torus wheels and the cover but I did come up with the Chevy torus wheels and cover but they are the stock ones so if any one finds someone to furnace braze the fins please let me know I have tried many heat treat company’s but no one I have contacted will do it

 

Classic Hydramatic - Contact Us
could they help?

 

It blows my mind when someone from another state recommends a place in my backyard that I had absolutely no idea existed. This is why the HAMB is the best site ever!!!!

 

That's a great site. Thanx for the link.

 

Bellhousing is separate on all single and dual range hydramatics.

 

1952 was first year for the dual range hydramatic. Slant pans are used on 1954-1956 Oldsmobiles and on 1955-1956 Pontiacs. All others are flat pans.

 

Yep. Except I think '55 was the last year for Dual Range hydros in GM passenger cars. I bought a junk yard '56 Olds for parts when building my Willys and it had a dual coupling Jetaway. I traded that tranny to a friend for my Willys Dual Range hydro. Chevy pickups had Dual Range trannys up to '62 as I remember and Rolls Royce used to 1967.

 

One thing I did for my Hydro is deepen the pan. I did it for a couple reasons. First Hydros have a habit of draining the fluid coupling can of fluid into the tranny when not running. There is a check valve that is supposed to prevent this but they aren't very effective. That high fluid level reaches the output yoke in the tail shaft which has a pinhole to allow sliding back and forth on the splined shaft. This results in a chronic drip on the garage floor. A deeper pan holds all the fluid below that leak point. The second reason is strictly vanity; a deep pan looks boss!

The finished pan. I had it silver color powder coated inside and out. Looks great and seals any pinholes in my welds.

I slit the pan in half and added a 1 1/2" strip of sheet metal. I gas welded the seams.


I did all the welding with the pan bolted to a junk tranny to prevent heat distortion.
Obviously the pickup tubes are now out of the fluid. To remedy that I brazed in lengths of steel tubing from a junk tranny putting the filter screen back on the pan floor. Also added a chunk of rod to lengthen the dip stick. Fill level is still the same specification as a stock tranny.

I ran water tests looking for leaks in my welds until it was sealed. Powder coating was the final seal.

 

Early 1956 Pontiac Chieftains & Olds 88 (not super 88) came with Dual Range hydramatics. The other models came with Jetaway/Stratoflight dual coupling hydramatics.

 

Don't feel bad. Jetaways were a definite improvement in many ways over the Dual Range cast iron slug. They just weren't military tank tough like their predecessors and never got the attention from the hot rod community. Dual Range trannys were perfected, super reliable in drag racing and so available they spanned the short Jetaway life when the aluminum 3 speeds took over the market. And they don't look as sexy hanging below the frame rails!!

Same thing for my favorite 200R4 OD tranny. I feel it is superior to the much more popular 7004R but the latter came in Corvetts, the former in BOP cars so guess which won the popularity wars.

 

Seeing as how the Hydramatics used a fluid coupling as opposed to a true torque converter, I'm kind of surprised to see the mention here of making modification to increase stall speed on the Hydramatics. Did this provide anywhere near the improvement that increasing the stall speed of a torque converter does?

 

That and the stall speed of the fluid coupling is very low, stock they lock up well before a tuned engine has reached usable torque.

Foot on the brake, I cannot rev my engine past 1500 or so with first engaged, and peak torque on my engine is about 2200 rpm.

Phil

 

All I know is that the trimmed torus wheels that C&O provided with the Hydro I had in my ‘47 Ford when I was young allowed my big Olds with a big Engle cam to idle in gear at stop lights instead of having to put it in neutral. If memory serves me, mine had a radius cut about 3/8” deep at the deepest part. I don’t remember if both wheels were cut, but I think so. Competition versions had like half of the stock depth cut out. The cars using them seemed to leave the line pretty hard and were fast. I don’t know what driving technique was used, maybe someone here knows. I never took my ‘47 to the track.
I’d like to know more about reshaping the vanes vs cutting them. Anyone have pictures of modified torus wheels?

 

All stall speed is nothing more than slippage in a fluid coupling. A torque converter is a torque converter only in the very first part of acceleration. Once the car is up to speed, a torque converter is just a fluid coupling. Cutting the vanes down in either results in inefficiency caused by slipping resulting in more stall speed. Incidentally the power flow thru the Hydramatic tranny is unique with torque in 4th gear being shared thru 2 paths. This results in pretty close to lock up in 4th gear. Ever notice they don't require a fluid cooling system like the modern 'more efficient' trannys do?

 

Hmmm . . . Guess I just needed a bit of a memory jog. It's been too many years since I've been "hands-on" with this stuff. If I'm remembering correctly, with a torque converter the torque multiplication is at its peak at stall speed. That sound right? Beyond that, as you stated, the converter begins to approach a nearly locked-up condition.

 

That is correct. Converters are active when the drive torus is spinning but the driven one is idle. This occurs when a car is taking off from a standing start. Torque is multiplied while that large rotational speed difference is present. Once the driven torus is near the drive one's speed, the converter vane becomes inactive. Thus the torque converter differs from the Hydro's torus system for only a few seconds at a time. The rest of a trip is on the torus. A torus whether in a torque converter tranny or a Hydro must always slip a little to transfer torque. If they are exactly the same speed, they don't work. That inefficiency is why modern trannys lock up when cruising. Hydramatic trannys address this problem too by splitting torque flow through two mechanical paths in the grar train, coming close to a lock up efficiency. They are truly a marvelous machine.

GM engineers designed the Hydramatic with 4 speeds, first gear being used only in the first few seconds of take off like a torque converter. For all practical purposes a Hydramatic is a 3 forward speed with first gear acting as its toque converter. Drag racers all started with the shifter in 2nd gear, letting the Hydro do the 1/2 'converter' shift automatically then shifting manually thru the rest of the gears.

 

[QUOTE Drag racers all started with the shifter in 2nd gear, letting the Hydro do the 1/2 'converter' shift automatically then shifting manually thru the rest of the gears.[/QUOTE]
So at the line with the selector in 2nd, did they raise the RPM to the stall point against the brakes? or did they idle, then mash the gas and let the engine rpm flash to the stall rpm? Talking the big guys here SWC, Big John, etc.
Most of the lower class automatic cars I was around back then did the first method; set the brakes, raising the rpm trying for that point where the RPM was up but not enough to override the rear brakes and start the tires spinning. In our area they called it "brake torqueing". It's a lazy leave but consistent and didn't break things.
I'm guessing that "flashing the converter" would hit the tires harder but would be rather inconsistent. Of course this is all before trans brakes came in.

 

So at the line with the selector in 2nd, did they raise the RPM to the stall point against the brakes? or did they idle, then mash the gas and let the engine rpm flash to the stall rpm? Talking the big guys here SWC, Big John, etc.
Most of the lower class automatic cars I was around back then did the first method; set the brakes, raising the rpm trying for that point where the RPM was up but not enough to override the rear brakes and start the tires spinning. In our area they called it "brake torqueing". It's a lazy leave but consistent and didn't break things.
I'm guessing that "flashing the converter" would hit the tires harder but would be rather inconsistent. Of course this is all before trans brakes came in.[/QUOTE]
That's where the machined torus comes in. The high powered racers machined out what looks like all but about 1/2" of the vanes! This allowed revving the engine with the brakes on due to the high slippage, high stall speed. No way would you want to cruise to Sonic in a car with a set of tori like that!!
Below is a photo of a page from B&M's catalog circa '66. Shown are a furnace brazed, machined torus on the left and a stock Chevy torus on the right. The left one is for HIGH stall in a blower hemi Willys gasser. You can see the slip was massive.


PS: As the B&M catalog says, be forewarned, running a trimmed torus on the street risks overheating problems. It is not recommended.

 

So at the line with the selector in 2nd, did they raise the RPM to the stall point against the brakes? or did they idle, then mash the gas and let the engine rpm flash to the stall rpm? Talking the big guys here SWC, Big John, etc.
Most of the lower class automatic cars I was around back then did the first method; set the brakes, raising the rpm trying for that point where the RPM was up but not enough to override the rear brakes and start the tires spinning. In our area they called it "brake torqueing". It's a lazy leave but consistent and didn't break things.
I'm guessing that "flashing the converter" would hit the tires harder but would be rather inconsistent. Of course this is all before trans brakes came in.[/QUOTE]






Hello,

When we were in the throes of building our 292 ci SBC 671 blower motor, we really wanted to hook it up to a B&M Hydro. All of the top racers were using them and were doing well with them. It made the starts so much faster and that was the advantage. My brother and I had limited supplies of money in 1959-60 and other than our small speed shop, we were limited as to what we could do to get that B&M.

We kept at what we had, the completed 292 SBC 671 motor was as strong as anyone’s motor in our class. My brother was getting better in his starts and becoming more accustomed to a fast start with his concentration. He knew he had the power to stay out in front if he got the lead. The LaSalle transmission was fine and we were winning.

But, we knew before we went to the U.S. Nationals in September, that he was saving money from his job. So, we were going to get that done before heading East. We had ordered one in late July and was going to be installed in the 2nd week in August. It was one of the final items we needed, other than the Hilborn two port injection and bigger M&H slicks.

Jnaki

Well as circumstances were at the time, that did not happen and we had to cancel all future obligations/orders. Some time later, we needed an automatic transmission for our 58 Impala, because it was difficult for our mom to use the stick shift 3 speed Impala when she needed to do some errands and shopping. So, we looked again at B&M and they did not do the conversions. Then we looked at C&O at the advice of our mentor in Los Angeles.

The C&O folks explained the whole process to me and it was a done deal. They had the 58 Impala for several days. In the end, it was a super fast off of the line Impala and the idle at any stop light was normal, in gear, without having to put it in neutral. Steve Montrelli and Gene Ciambella showed me the manual shift position and the gears.

They both said the manual gearing was not the best as it would stay in that gear until it blew up. So, for 99% of the time, it was in “D” for normal driving and for full on accelerations runs. The first and second manual gears were very short under full throttle.

It was hard enough to concentrate on getting a good flag drop or green light, so the manual portion was useless for me. It was easier and more efficient to just step on the gas pedal and get in the lead instantly. Usually, the opponent in the other lane did not know how I got out so fast and ahead. Power and an efficient Stick Hydro modified/installed/set up by C&O in Torrance.

At the time 1960-65, there were no burn outs prior to racing. It was just pure power from a standing start and that was enough to get out in front for the quarter mile. It was not necessary to rev up the motor to higher rpms. The C&O Stick Hydro would just start the whole process with a full throttle acceleration from idle. Not 1/8 mile runs, but the full power and shifting for the longer quarter mile.
1962
With the 4:11 gears, it was fine on the street and daily driving to school/Friday nights. The 4:56 gears was the top performance gearing and no one could get off of the starting line faster than my Impala. From idle to full power runs was quick, fast and very efficient for such big car. We did try the 2nd gear technique as shown to us by the C&O folks. But, that still took extra time/concentration, that was needed to keep the Impala quick off of the starting line and straight down the lane, winning.

Compared to today’s high performance cars and station wagons, the upper limit horsepower and the newest technology in transmissions allows faster getaways with the modern powerful engines. But, it was not a 1957-65 cool dual purpose hot rod sedan for some wild eyed teenager going down the darkened street at full power. YRMV

Thank you, Gene C. and Steve M.

My 1958 Impala was one of the only sedans with a new C&O Stick Hydro installed and it was a one of a kind surprise to all those in the next lane. Never a problem and instantly took charge at anytime.

 

Here is the complete mid-60s B&M catalog.

 

And here is the Hydro parts catalog. Items 66 thru 70 are the B&M 1st gear lock valve.

The last two pages are instructions for gluing the tranny. flywheel, and bell housing together to hopefully reduce leakage. They recommended gluing the tranny to the bellhousing since the front pump is held in the case with the edges of two capture screws with an O-ring seal and the torque of big blowe motors tweaked the joint and caused leaks.

 

Do you have an extra bellhousing for sale or rent?

 

Please forgive me if these questions have been answered elsewhere. I'm trying to convert some of the US part names to the ones used locally, and am struggling. Appreciate some hydra schooling please.

The GM Roto Hydramatic came out in two models. The Model 10, and the Model 5. The Aussie GM Holdens (1962-1965) used the Model 5. My understanding is that the Model 5 is the later "Jetaway" and the Model 10 the earlier "Dual-Coupling" unit?

I also understand that the B&M Hydrostick is suitable for the Model 10, and not the Model 5. Is this correct?

The Model 5 transmissions are still relatively common down under. Not that many on the road, but plenty under people's benches. They are seen as a hard to understand, high weight slug compared to the local 3-speed manual box, so are often swapped out. Typical price for one is a carton of beer.

If the Hydrostick works with a Model 5, there is a part of me that would love to run one in my project car.

Cheers,
Harv

 

Only have the one olds bell housing and ill be using it.

 

Thanks! My daughter had been born 8 days earlier, so I missed this notification at some point along the line.
Thanks for the tag! It's a phenomenal thread. I'll have to read back through and assist where I can.

@1twisted1 check out the Hydro Tech group. You can find it under my profile picture to the left of this message.

 

A question for you hydro experts:
Is a 1950 Cadillac hydro a decent trans for performance use, or is a later hydro better?
Can it be built to take 500-600 hp?