Projects 292 y-block valve spring removal

Clearly I am trying to remove the valve spring - and it is not playing out as I expected.

I was expecting to see 2 little c-shaped locks wrapped around the valve stem - essentially resting in a cup shape on the retainer. I was going to use a magnetic pickup to catch them. Instead there is this cup shaped retainer within the retainer? A 2-piece retainer? It is not in the shop manual pictures like that.

Am I supposed to tap or press that down out of the way? I tried one other spring and it behaved exactly the same.

PS - yes I know I am using a borrowed spring compression tool that no one will like, but it did compress the spring and stay put through the process.

 

Put a washer over it so only retainer clips will pass thru.

 

You should be able to tap the retainer cup down. Tapping on one side should release it. Burned oil and the taper fit holding it in place. Before I use a spring compressor I like to tap on all the retainers to loosen them.

 

Those are the "valve rotators" iirc. The keepers just haven't been disassembled in a while. Try twisting it around, too. Might have to get more spring, another coil further down, with the tool.

There's nothing "wrong" with that tool as such, but it's made for spring removal with the engine still installed. If the heads are off there are better ways.

 

there are better ways - yes sir, you are correct

 

I was pretty happy with that tool overall, it was close, but it was even able to remove and install the springs directly underneath the brake master cylinder.

Took my time and frequent breaks and managed not to lose any of the 32 valve keepers down inside the engine or watch them ping off somewhere on the other side of the garage.

 

Just curious, what's the overall plan? It sure is easier to git 'er all done with heads removed. Machine shop time?

 

Yes, they do get stuck pretty tightly. Use one of the little "magnet on a stick" thingies to catch the keepers. Stick the little magnet to one side of the retainer and sharply tap the other side of it. Done carefully the keepers will stay suck and won't go flying. I do this a lot and have never had a problem with this method.

 

Truck64, I am so glad you asked - you are right - I am at machine shop time. But I am vascillating.

The bare truth is that I don't really care about this 292 y-block. It was stuck when I got it - I got it to move back and forth half an inch - and after about 20 times it just went back to stuck. So far it has resisted all of my attempts at turning. At this point, I believe I need to pull the bottom to see why we are immobile. Otherwise, so far it looks like it needs at least 2 pistons worth of work (based on how oil doesn't stay on top) and a valve job. I haven't made it to the timing chain or the bearings, cam lobes, or crank journals yet.

No matter what I do, a '62 Mercury Monterey 4-door sedan will never been a highly desireable model. That b-pillar is a pretty steep tax. I didn't get it for show or racing or being morally pure in terms of matching numbers. All I want out of the project is the occassional help from my teenaged daughter to end with a running cruiser she thinks looks decent.

I either need to commit to rebuilding this engine (and hence let the machine shop deal with the valve springs).
- or -
Decide to find some y-block fan who wants it more than me and get a reman'd FE long block.

There is still alternator, brakes, fuel lines, chassis rubber, shocks, interior, body work and paint that needs to be attended to.

 

I’m a y block guy, but with a stuck y block, I’d be looking at an FE, too. It’s been 25 years since my daughter was a teenager (she turned out fine), but then I’d be looking at about a 74 pinto motor with all the smog equipment on it. Kris thought a throttle was an on-off switch.

Great to have a daughter that’s interested.

 

You are the 3rd person in my Puget Sound area who has offered that observation.

 

Problem there will be fabrication required, and a new bellhousing, to swap in a different engine family.

If you start tearing into any motor that age or mileage everything is going to be way out of spec anyway. Lots of "backyard overhauls" though, used to simply revolve around new bearings, cylinder hone and rings, and a timing set. Y-Blocks are a bit different to work with, but I'd try to find a good running one to swap in versus an FE.

 

While I'm thinking of it Squirrel did a real good write-up (with pitchers & everything!) a while back on a Low Buck Y-Block overhaul. Might want to look it over, and see what you think.

I'm doing a budget overhaul on the 292 in my new 59 Edsel. I just want to get the car running and driving, without spending any unnecessary cash.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/y-block-overhaul.1017969/

 

Thanks - he shared a couple of those pictures with me in response to a different question I had, but I didn't realize he took a similar mentalemotional approach for that project as I have. Get it running and driving reliably so I can have fun with it.

For an FE conversion, I was aware of the need to change the bellhousing / clutch / flywheel, but I did not think there would be fabrication. I thought the engine mounts were the same since this model could be had with a couple of FE options: 352 & 390. I hoped it would still align with the transmission cross member. Are my thoughts and hopes misguided (they often lead me astray)? What else am I not considering?

 

Engine mounts & front support, I think. Definitely not the guy to ask on this.

 

If it were me and starting from scratch I wouldn't rule out a 302-351, C-4 swap. Lots of them around and parts-o-plenty if you need anything.

 

I may be wrong, but I was thinking the FE and the Y block had the same bolt pattern for the bell housing.

 

The bellhousings are not interchangeable.

 

A stuck engine in otherwise reasonable condition, yeah there are tricks to get them un-stuck but it's also kind of a judgment call. How did the rocker arms & shaft look? Upper end oiling was a problem because of the design. Pulling the pan, check out the oil pan & screen, maybe a bearing or two makes sense.

Don't jump off the ledge just yet, Y-Blocks are tough engines, and they sound great with glasspacks.

 

It did move ... I beat on the piston tops with a hammer + a stick and it moved.


Back and forth about 1/2 ~ 1 inch of piston travel with me turning the crank bolt. I am sure I gave it another whack with the pistonator, but whatever happened after about 10 minutes of joy it stopped. The car has so far been unwilling to let go ... but I don't have it out and the pan off yet.

The rocker arms and shafts look ok to me - they are oily anyway

 

Are you able to get to all the rod bolt nuts to remove or at least lower the crank some?

 

I will hopefully let you know next week - home and job are interfering with my garage time.

 

OK, what you want to do with those rockers is slide 'em over to the side against the spring tension and then look on the under side of of the rocker shaft, that's where the load is, and where galling and scoring occurs especially without any oil. Y-Blocks were famous for poor oiling up top.

 

It's a bit of damned if I do and damned if I don't. Going though the Y block means you either don't have to figure out how to make an FE or something else fit and hook up but might be a challenge if the engine needs a lot. I'm assuming that you are pretty well versed in FE engines and it may best to go with what you know.
In other news those 62 Montereys aren't the ugliest early 60's gun boat by a long shot.

 

Bwhahah ... My singular accomplishment in this domain is a lawn mower engine I did in 7th grade shop. I know that a 390fe gives me twice the horsepower, is easier to get parts, and if I get the right year block it fits my engine mounts. And I can buy a reman'd long block to save me from discovering I am not nearly as clever and capable as I want to think.

You captured the existential dilemma spot on.

 

Pull the pan and see what you find. If it’s a broken rod binding up, that’s way different than a stuck piston. Give us a couple pictures of the car, and your assessment of rust. Condition of interior, etc. Which transmission it has. It all plays into the decision.

Building a performance y block is expensive. But a simple rebuild on a stock engine isn’t so bad. Probably less than an engine swap. More than a sbc, but not much worse than an FE.

I’m only a couple hours away. I’m not a rebuilder, but I’d have a look if needed. No work, but free advice (we all know, you get what you pay for )

 

Body wise - It has been repainted - it should be white and green and it is not quite the correct green. There is bondo under paint on the bottom of the two rear fenders. There are 4x6 inch "vent holes" at the top front of both rear wheel wells (inside the trunk space) and a hole about the side of a playing card under the drivers left thigh. The frame & drive shaft are covered with this leopard spotted rust. The floor pans are otherwise OK - but the floor pan supports have been eaten through in a couple places where they arc into the tunnel. Most of the rubber stoppers and supports are toast.

I have no good pictures of the bent front left fender or the bent hood / grille center front. I am sure it was run into a post at some point. You can guess that the hood latches were frozen open. And it needs back glass.

It has a Ford 259 3-speed manual (9 bolt side loader) transmission. It had plenty of oil in it, but I pulled grapenuts off the drain plug. I have not opened it. It shifted smoothly enough (under no load).

It had plenty of water in it when I opened it in spite of someone having stolen the radiator. Didn't realize there were petcocks to drain at the bottom - who would have thought I needed to - but the heater core and the cylinder heads both wizzed a quart or 2 all over my floor.

It had some oil in it that did not smell like gas, water or burnt tires. It was DARK, but it was also that graphite stuff ... so I don't know. It showed on the dipstick, but did not seem to have much when I drained it. I got way more out of the tranny. None in the filter - which surprised me.

I have 2 cylinders that won't hold oil on top for long. They both correlate to the very dark and sorta dark exhaust ports. Me thinks she smoked from a lot from #1 & some from #6.

I decided the brakes and fuels lines are getting a redo. The master cylinder was bone dry - and single barrels scare me. The gas tank is solid, but the gallon or so in there smells like lacquer. But the wheels turn - even the E-brake worked.

In my opinion, rust wise - aside from the holes I mentioned - it needs a good scrubbing and some POR15. I have wire wheeled some of the parts I have taken off and they come out looking decent.

I would not put a SBC in here. The reason to go 352 FE or 390 FE (1961~1964) is that they came in this car, with that same tranny - so I can mount one to the whole without a bunch of fab (I hope). I would like to find the version of that transmission that had an overdrive, but that is on the wish list for now. I do not need that to make it run.

This is its current state. I plan to lift it this out this weekend and wrestle it onto a stand.


And here are 2 gratuitous pics =>
Treasure from the truck


Treasure for my heart:

 

Dadgummit - I forgot to say THANK YOU for your counsel

 

Here's a rocker arm too far gone. A few thousandths is one thing, this won't work.
Photo Courtesy of the "Hot Rod Reverend".

 

For that car, I would say check out the real obvious reason it's stuck. Like others have said if it's simply a rod it's an easier fix. You are going to have to find a nearly 0 cost engine substitute in my opinion to make this work out easy. Which is possible and does happen. But for me only about 50% of the time. The more wholesale changes you make the more it costs. The kind of cost you won't get back.
I am a believer in cobbling that old block back together OR getting another one that's running. They are out there, I've had several. Probably same goes for the FE too but you won't gain much. At least you shouldn't be trying to gain much, just get it back to reasonable running shape. I can tell that car will need some things (as they always do) that will add to the cost of it. Brakes for one, Tires also. She needs to be in a safe driver, and this could be a good one.