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Projects First flathead project...

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by CaliforniaDreaming, Sep 5, 2021.

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  1. Great idea, you'll have fun.

    88 vote(s)
    77.9%
  2. Bad idea, forget it.

    17 vote(s)
    15.0%
  3. Just get a newer car.

    8 vote(s)
    7.1%
  1. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,913

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The last line in your point 5 should be required reading for anyone troubleshooting anything.

    One change at a time!
     
    Lawrence D likes this.
  2. Bought this car because it's in good shape. The intent is to modify it to suit my preferences. Never intended to get into "correct" restoration. On the other hand, the history is starting to get interesting. It's a Special, not a Deluxe or Super Deluxe. It's rare, but not necessarily valuable. Anyone who thinks this car needs to be preserved as-is has had lots opportunity to do so with their own money over the last decade . It's been for sale at least 3 times just this year. I even found an auction report about it all the way back from 2012:

    https://sportscardigest.com/worldwide-auctioneers-auburn-2012-auction-report/2/

    Worldwide Auctioneers Auburn 2012 – Auction Report

    "Lot # 15 1941 Ford Special Coupe; S/N 18636xxxx; Black/Beige cloth; Estimate $50,000 – $60,000; Recent restoration, 2- condition; Not sold at Hammer bid of $29,000 — Steel wheels, hubcaps, blackwalls, no backseat. Good paint with some flaws. Good interior and chrome. A rare sub-base model car with an unusually good restoration. Ford responded to the increasing focus on economy with the Special Coupe, a counter to Chevrolet’s Master Deluxe. Built for only one year and was severely ‘de-contented’ in modern parlance. Even the bumpers were carry-overs from 1940. Rarely seen, and never in this condition, it is a choice piece for a specialist Ford collector but less desirable in the mainstream. Apparently the only Ford collectors in the Auburn Auction were mainstream and they didn’t like this stripper, price-point Ford very much. It is a missed opportunity for someone who understands."

    I'll probably keep going (slowly) to modify, but keep the look, and stick to reversible mods except for an open drive conversion (later) to install a T5. Open drive is reversible but harder than just a bolt-on like dual carbs.
    8.jpg
    No, the California black tag "VINTAGE" didn't come with the car.
    Ford Special p1.jpg ford special 2.jpg Ford Special p3.jpg
    With the help of this picture, FINALLY figured out how to get behind the back seat without unscrewing the package shelf!
    15.jpg
    Not the "correct" upholstery for a "Special". I have a picture of the "correct" cloth from the Early Ford V8 club 1941-1948 book but it appears not to be available anywhere.
     
    mctim64 likes this.
  3. Lawrence D
    Joined: Feb 7, 2020
    Posts: 3

    Lawrence D

    JNAKI.., Great post on your early days flathead delivery experience.
    All those areas are my backyard too and your experience was a bit eye opening.
    San Diego is about hills, many of them steep enough and I've spent enough of my life rowing up them, so I don't want any more of that.
    I decided I wanted a flatty several years ago in whatever car I build soon and knew a typical version was not SBC sorta power, but I didn't realize they we're quite that down on power or torque in comparison.
    I may still go with a flatty (in a 30-32 Sedan), but I now know it might be good to give one some makeover help inside and not just make sure it will run cool.
    Thanx for that wakeup call.
     
  4. Real progress today! Mechanical fuel pump is still bad but reinstalled the working electric fuel pump with a fuel pressure regulator and pressure gauge. Fuel pressure set to 2.5 psi. No more fuel running down the outside of the carb from the fuel bowl gasket and was able to set the idle mixture more or less correctly. Still a wicked hesitation off idle that makes it a devil to drive. If I had to guess, I'd say bad accelerator pump. I'll rebuild the carb next weekend with the new accelerator pump. As said previously, the mechanical fuel pump is a throwaway because the check valves can't be replaced. Likely get one sometime in the future when I know exactly what I'm going to do with the car. IMG_20211009_153615588.jpg
     
    Bandit Billy likes this.
  5. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,908

    RodStRace
    Member

    SO glad to see a real regulator, not one of those push and twist pieces of junk!
    It is a bit blingy, but getting it safely running is the prime objective.

    Acc pump would be my guess too, but I'd suggest once that is completed, perform a complete tuneup.
    Work from a known proper setup (correct dwell or gap, good plugs, good spark, initial and advance timing, properly adjusted carb).
     
    Bandit Billy and warhorseracing like this.
  6. my 2 cents: leave the car as it sits, maybe really minor (invisible) changes. drive the hell out of it. you're ridin' a time capsule. the mellow sound of a V8 flathead will let you forget all thoughts about automatic transmission or wishing you'd have an A/C. wonderful car it is.
     
    hotrodfil and warhorseracing like this.
  7. Roger Loupias
    Joined: Jun 24, 2021
    Posts: 159

    Roger Loupias

     
    jnaki likes this.
  8. Thanks 40two. That's the basic idea. invisible changes is what I'm going for. Love the time capsule look. Just paid $20 on eBay for an original copy of the 'Special' brochure in the thread above. There will NEVER be an automatic transmission in this car unless I become disabled. Although a "3 on the tree" is classic, it might be hard to resist a 5 speed manual. Not crazy about classic tires with inner tubes. Might go for tubeless tires too.
     
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  9. Yup, it's too blingy. Wouldn't have bought a chrome regulator if there was another in stock. Bling is not my thing but as an engineer I love having a highly rated adjustable regulator and the most reliable pressure gauge available. Tried to get the best stuff and not the cheap stuff.

    Checked on the ethanol resistance of my carb kit. Called Walker Industries and spoke to a tech. It has a Viton cup which is supposed to work with E10 gas.

    Even bought a machined power valve from Charlie Price which arrived today. Should avoid leaks from an improperly seated power valve.

    Dwell, gap and timing is something new to me on this 'diving helmet' distributor, I'm used to 1960's technology, not 1930's 1940's. Apparently I have to remove the distributor to access any of these adjustments. Not complaining though, bought this car BECAUSE it's a flathead.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021
  10. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,908

    RodStRace
    Member

    Right there with you on the tech. Glad to see you embrace learning something OLD! :)
     
    warhorseracing likes this.
  11. Determined to be efficient and methodical. Attempted to rebuild the Holley 94 carb. Found three issues that might have been contributing to my woes: 1. Needed new gaskets on the nozzle bars, 2. power valve might not have been well seated, it wasn't a Holley 94 power valve, 3. accelerator pump return spring was missing, but it's only on some diagrams, not all, for the Holley 94. It's purpose is not clear. Since I didn't have a spring for the missing spring, I ordered one from Charlie Price at Vintage Speed. It will arrive by Friday.

    Also, did something that I haven't done in a LONNNNG time; I stripped a screw. Extremely annoying. I'm very careful, have 3 torque wrenches, and am very gentle. Did it anyway though. Purchased a Helicoil kit of the right size from O'Reilly Auto Parts.

    Still don't know if my charging system is working correctly. Am considering purchasing a voltmeter and vacuum gauge to mount under the dash. Vacuum gauge for further tuning.

    Hopefully back in business early Saturday.
     
    warhorseracing likes this.
  12. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,908

    RodStRace
    Member

    Don't know if this will help, but found it doing a search.
    https://myflatheadford.com/charlie-price-1-of-4-holley-94-disassembly-and-inspection/
    Seems like this guy knows these carbs pretty well. I wouldn't use power tools to disassemble, but I bet he has plenty of spares to cover for stripped parts.
    Normally the acc pump rod is connected solid to the throttle linkage, with a spring to work the pump bellow. Having the bellow solid would make the linkage behave like a shock absorber, limiting the speed of opening.
    This is a thread on the spring
    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/holley-94-accelerator-pump-return-spring.208641/
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
    warhorseracing likes this.
  13. Funny you should mention those videos. I had those very same ones playing on my workbench while I was taking apart and reassembling, pausing and playing. I stopped when I got to the missing spring under the accelerator pump and ordered a new one from him right away. O'Reilly Auto had a helicoil kit I could use for the stripped screw. Could have just used an oversize bolt but I think that just sets a trap for future problems. Big clunky bolt on a small carburetor.

    Can't wait to get this thing running right and drive it more a couple of blocks.

    Hope the charging system works.
     
  14. Real progress. Completed the carb rebuild, which identified and fixed 4 carb issues, and did a test drive. The 4th issue was the float settings. They weren't even in the right universe. Didn't check them when I disassembled the carb so maybe the dimensions on the new float valve in the carb kit were different. No hesitation, no super-rich stink, no fuel leaks. Tomorrow I'll change the oil which I think is contaminated with gasoline. Also strongly suspect my charging system doesn't work.

    Don't want to drive too many miles with no battery charging going on and have to get towed.

    Connected a volt meter to the battery with the car off and get 6 volts. With the engine running and even revving the engine, I get a rock solid and steady 6 volts. Would have expected a higher reading. Watching some videos about generator and voltage regulator testing.
     
    warhorseracing likes this.
  15. PhilA
    Joined: Sep 6, 2018
    Posts: 2,061

    PhilA
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hydro Tech

    Glad you're getting to grips with the car. Flatheads are wonderful!
    The engineering is also very "human", most of it makes sense if you are able to go and try understand why it was made the way it was. Ol' Henry didn't complicate anything he didn't need to.

    For lights- there's some nice little bolt-on lamps that fit below license tag and don't scream that they're there until they're lit- they're a good attention grabber for modern traffic. I know that's not traditional but with a single lamp you need something with a bit more illumination to wake up the modern day driver following you. That allows you to keep the proper look but still be a little safer on the highway.

    For troubleshooting the charging system I would recommend an analog meter- one of the little cheap plastic ones from a hardware store is good but for lead acid batteries you're down to the tenths of a volt for accuracy when testing. Most small ones are 0-10V so provide adequate resolution on the scale. Analog meters are slow and provide a suitable averaging of the readings they provide.

    Fast idle you should be seeing 7.2 to 7.4 volts on a battery that's just been used to start the engine. If you see no voltage change then no, you aren't charging and need to investigate the generator and regulator.
    Hopefully it's just going to be bad contacts and out of adjustment causing your issues, which are easily cleaned and set back into good working order.
    So long as you realize you'll be spending more time under the hood than you would with a modern vehicle, you'll realize that they are still remarkably reliable through their simplicity, and that's the main part of their charm, at least for me.

    Phil
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
    alanp561 and warhorseracing like this.
  16. Spent half the day watching videos, thinking and testing. 95% certain my generator, and not my voltage regulator or battery is bad. Been using my trickle charger to keep the battery charged. Car cranks and starts fine; Autozone says I have a fully charged good battery.
    1. Voltage at the battery a steady 6 volts, running or not, fast idle or not.
    2. Car dies when I remove the ground cable
    3. Tried to motor the generator. Turned over very slowly for a few seconds and then couldn't get it to motor any more.
    4. When grounding out the field wire, nothing happens, would have expected the ammeter to indicate something.
    5. With the car running and field and armature wires disconnected, put out only between 0.5 volt and 1.0 volt. Think I should have had at least 1.5

    Trying to decide whether to send it off to C&G Ford Parts for a $230 rebuild or just order and install new brushes and brush springs, clean up the rotating contact surface using my drill press as a makeshift lathe and hope for the best.
     
  17. Yes, the more I poke at this car, the more I see that's owner/mechanic friendly with basic tools (except the distributor.) Modern cars, not so much. Unless you purchase the $3000 diagnostic tool with a subscription, half the car is inaccessible to you.

    That sounds like the ticket. with 6 volt LED bulbs to boot, should be in business.

    Investigated. Generator is bad. I'll try new brushes and see what happens.

    Agree. I had a '64 Impala but sold it when I moved. Took several months but I finally realized that I really missed all the DIY problem solving without the pressure of daily driver necessity. Wanted a flathead V8 this time around when I bought it a few weeks ago.
     
    PhilA likes this.
  18. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,908

    RodStRace
    Member

    Do a search for full fielding the generator (using the circuits at the regulator) and polarizing the charging system. Too many problems are not fixed by just tossing parts at it. Diagnose first!
     
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  19. ^^^^^^^What he said go through the basic testing procedure first then buy the parts you need. Cheaper and rewarding.
     
    RodStRace likes this.
  20. You're right. Just forgot to add to the list that in the course of this troubleshooting polarized the generator at the regulator several times.
     
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  21. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,908

    RodStRace
    Member

  22. Went through these links; great info. Definitely the generator. Only thing left to do before rebrushing it is to take it apart and see if I can see anything like a cooked armature or a broken field wire. Don't have a growler so I can't do that test.
     
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  23. Rechecked everything and lo and behold, if I manually apply power to the field, the generator charges the battery. It wasn't the generator. New voltage regulator arrived today; works like a champ. The car is now charging itself for the first time since I've owned it. Next is dialing down the fuel pressure a bit, changing the oil, and taking the first drive more than a few blocks from the house.
     
    Budget36, PhilA, RodStRace and 2 others like this.
  24. You are getting there sooner than if you had followed your original plan. :) Keep going and begin to enjoy the car for awhile. I really thing you will like and appreciate it for what it is. ;) One thing before running it too much. Check your oil level. If it is high or smells of gas change it now. Not after a long drive. With your carb problems it could have flooded and got into the crankcase.:rolleyes:
     
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  25. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,908

    RodStRace
    Member

    Sounds like you are moving in the right direction!
    Run it for a while (charging with lights on) and feel the wiring to make sure nothing is getting too warm, now that it's working. Make sure the connections are clean and tight.

    I would offer one more thing to do before a long drive. This will sound like a broken record to some who come across my posts, but these older cars were designed and built requiring maintenance. No 'lubed for life' or 'self adjusting' in the car. Get a service manual or look it up online and lubricate everything according to the instructions, make sure the brakes (including emergency or parking) and clutch are adjusted properly, and all fluids are good and full. Something that goes fine 5 miles while cold can be a failure after getting up to temperature and having to operate under more time and speed.
    This time of year in So Cal. is great for exploring a new ride. Not too hot, not too cold, not as many tourists. Keep to quieter streets and take it easy to get to know the car. Oh, and wave to people staring, you don't want to be thought of as one of those low life hot rod hoodlums! :p
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
    warhorseracing likes this.
  26. PhilA
    Joined: Sep 6, 2018
    Posts: 2,061

    PhilA
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hydro Tech

    Get yourself a decent grease gun, too.

    Even if you have a grease gun, go get a Wanner 315. It'll outlive you, they're fantastic tools. Mine popped the crud out of every single stuck zerk on my suspension, which hadn't been greased in a long time when I got the car.
    The pressed steel one I got from a local auto parts store couldn't touch 'em.

    Phil
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
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  27. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,908

    RodStRace
    Member

    Yeah, most seem to require two hands to pump. Great if you have a third hand to hold the hose end to the Zerk...
    Once you have hit them all a few times and they are all taking grease well, that may not be an issue, but it seems like there is always one or two that bind and require the hose to be held on.
     
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  28. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,913

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I was really surprised when I read the owners manual for my car (1951 Ford) and found out the chassis lube interval was 1000 miles. I was fortunate that my car has been well cared for (it was the "Go to Church" car for a couple of bachelor farmer brothers in rural Minnesota). I have maintained the maintenance schedule and the car, now showing 83,xxx miles drives easily with no shakes or rattles. I believe that front end problems endemic with older cars originates from lack of proper maintenance.
     
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  29. PhilA
    Joined: Sep 6, 2018
    Posts: 2,061

    PhilA
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Hydro Tech

    That's why I like the 315. Solid metal pipe with a slight kink in for access and to bring squeeze+push to the correct angle that you can hold it onto the zerk if needed and to pressurize it at the same time with one hand. It was designed for motorcycles with limited access, and found popularity in aircraft maintenance due to the extreme pressure it can make.

    I replace all zerks that are too rusty for the claws in the fitting to grab. My local hardware store keeps them for $0.25 each, in the farm-n-tractors area of the store. At that price it doesn't really pay not to.

    Makes the 300 mile maintenance so much easier. (The suspension is so worn on mine that it needs to be kept packed out regularly. I agree with Tubman on that one!)


    If I drive 1000 miles in the car without doing anything to it, then do a tune-up it makes a significant difference to how the car rides, handles, drives, stops. It quite honestly transforms the vehicle.
    Phil
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
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  30. Bearing Burner
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,107

    Bearing Burner
    Member
    from W. MA

    As I remember you changed oil every 1000 miles
     
    PhilA likes this.

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