Well, my post wasn't directed toward yours, but since you brought this up.... Rust like that in an oil wetted compartment says to me that you've got water/moisture accumulation occurring. Low level leaks and condensation will tend to evaporate when you get the oil up to operating temperature. An engine that never gets driven long/hard enough to attain operating temp, water can accumulate. Or you've got a more advanced leak developing. One of the signs I tell customers to watch for when they have a pending EGR cooler, or oil cooler failure (which we'll pick up from oil analysis) is to do daily oil level checks, if water is accumulating in the oil one of the first places you'll notice it is rust developing on the dip stick (as well as a thick foam that builds on the oil fill cap). But what makes you think zinc is going to help that condition? Zddp might have corrosion inhibiting properties, but not for that. It protects load bearing surfaces where the heat generated from friction causes it to form a protective film. That doesn't occur on those surfaces. There are other additives in the oil called rust & corrosion inhibitors that are polar, i.e. that have an attraction to metallic surfaces and will form a thin layer on the surface to prevent water from making contact with the surface. As a matter of fact, zddp used in engine oils tends to be "hydrolytically unstable", i.e. it decomposes in the presence of water. That's something to consider if you've got condensation problems.
The data sheets and the supposed 'experts' on here are using numbers based on modern engines. I've posted data on here in the past in regards to older (pre- EPA emission mandates and pre minimum fuel economy crap) engines and oil additives, and got a bunch of shit for it. The back and forth taking place on here is laughable ... like comparing apples to oranges. The tolerances on engines that the big oil companies use for their current sales pitches to American consumers, is nothing even remotely close to being practical for what most of us have under the hoods of our rides. Anecdotal evidence aside, there is hard data (facts) available to everyone, but it's buried in old texts that apparently nobody bothers to utilize any longer.
Maybe they do. Meet emissions standards, don't worry about wear on old flat tappet engines, don't plug catalytic converters.. I find it more interesting that they can make gasoline that plugs jets, corrodes carbs, rots rubber.. Why is there more ZDDP in diesel oil btw?
I do like the Lukas oil stabilizer in older engines that burn oil or have an internal noise. I have “ cured” a few issues with this “ mechanic in a bottle” albeit it’s a temporary fix or a band aid to limp an engine along. Sometimes for quite a while. anyways, at work we use bulk oil sold in gallon jugs, 5 gallon pails and 55 gallon drums. Multiple suppliers and brands. Nothing “ name brand” This oil ( engine , trans , diff, hydraulics) goes in high demand sometimes 24/7 operations , indoor outdoor , forklifts , skidsteers , wheel loaders , metal shredders, etc. Equipment that sees use and abuse that our cars would never see ( other then dragsters ) And I have not seen a failure to date over the “ type” of oil used. I have used some of these “ snake oils “ in the past with success. ( Lukas oil stabilizer , rad stop leaks , water wetter etc) with success. but realistically, use an oil that meets your requirements, a decent filter, run your engine to operating temp, and change the oil on a regular basis, and you won’t need any of these snake oils until the engine has long surpassed its service life.
Changed my s.b.c. engines over to fully synthetic in the mid 90s, The next 3 years shortly after spring start ups. lost 2 flat tappid performance Hyd cams/springs in one engine and 1 stock cam with stock springs in another engine. I didn't know about the zinc then, I felt that the improved flow of full synthetic made it flow right off the cams during the road salting November to April Wisconsin winter nap. Changed back to conventional oil along with Lucas because of the cling factor, "Tackifier that Blues4U mentioned" and have not lost a cam in 20 years.
Oil additives=mouse milk. The only sure thing about them is that they drain your wallet. Be wary of testimonials, especially those without data that has been peer reviewed.
We have this: A low-detergent engine oil crafted for use in petrol and diesel-fueled vehicles designed between 1950 and 1989, Penrite Classic Light 20W60 Engine Oil is intended to provide a double layer of protection for your engine. The innovative oil features high zinc levels and an increased viscosity, keeping your engine protected from wear as well as high operating temperatures. Penrite Classic Light 20W60 Engine Oil can be used in a huge range of applications, from passenger cars and motorcycles to buses, trucks, and other heavy equipment. PENRITE CLASSIC LIGHT 20W60 ENGINE OIL CLASL005 SPECIFICATIONS Volume: 5L Industry and manufacturer's specifications: API SG and API SG/CD And this: Penrite HPR 30 is a premium high performance mineral, SAE 20W-60, non-friction modified engine oil featuring Penrite's Double Layer of engine wear protection. This oil incorporates Penrite’s Full Zinc additive package, creating a sacrificial layer on critical engine components to protect them from metal to metal contact and cold start wear. This oil also features Penrite’s Extra Ten technology, providing increased oil pressure and internal engine protection in high temperature climates and severe operating conditions. Designed for use in a wide range of applications such as petrol, LPG and diesel engines without diesel particulate filters (DPF), race applications where fuels such as avgas, alcohol, methanol, nitro and E85 are used, motorcycle engines with wet clutches and in gearboxes that require an SAE30 non-friction modified oil. Also suitable for use in older rotary engines manufactured between 1969 and 1991. Features 5 Litre, 20W-60, API SM/CF, ACEA A3/B3. Extra Ten formulation provides an extra layer of protection ideal for use in high temperature applications Full Zinc additive package provides sacrificial coating for superior engine wear protection Specifically designed with older rotary motors in mind, ranging from 1969 to 1991 Compatible with racing fuels including avgas, nitro, methanol, alcohol and E85 Suitable for use in motorcycles with wet clutches and gearboxes requiring SAE-30 non-friction modified oil Mineral formula designed for use in petrol, LPG and diesel vehicles without DPFs, see our Parts Guide to find the right oil for your vehicle
You guys in the 'other colonies' have such magical product names... like this "Penrite Shelsley Medium" Here are some names I offer up to your marketers... Mister Morrison's Magical Motor Moisturizer The Queen Mother's Camshaft Elixir Colonel Augustus Milbourne's Engine Emollient
Mr. X38 - By your command...I DID..! I had bought an 1960 Rambler 2dr. wagon about 325 miles from home. Overall, the car seemed in really good shape. I checked the water and oil levels and off we went. A friend and I got on the freeway to go to his parents house for the night, and hit the road in the morning. Well, we got five or six miles up (north) the road, and a BAM, against the fire wall. I had no idea what it was. A check on the "working" gauges all was fine. I continued. As I noticed the water temp. climbing, rusty water started coming out from between the hood and fender on the left side. Hmm, now what ! I kept driving (I had other plans for an engine), while having to push harder on the throttle, until the car came to a halt. I had driven about three miles after the "bang" at the firewall, before the engine came to a stop. Long story short, and two days later, we finally got the car home. SO...what say you now...Mr. X38 ? All I got was about three miles with only dino oil in the crankcase. Mike
25W-70 ??? Man how's the flow rate on that ? Geesh - we pour that over our Pancakes. Vermont Maple Brand.
I say, "is that your duplicate experiment?" You bought a Rambler, it went BAM!, you kept driving and it lasted 3 miles. Come on, Judge Judy wouldn't buy that.
Well looks like the major oil companies, Valvoline, Castrol etc. have joined the 'high zinc, flat tappet engine' oil game along with the smaller guys (Penrite, Kendal, Royal Purple). An admission to the need for our engines or just snake oil marketing along with the zinc additive boys? BTW, these new oils are not for use with cat converters..
There is more ZDDP in diesel oil because the the number one selling medium duty diesel truck engine still uses a flat tappet camshaft. This engine is the ISB 6.7 Cummins. It’s the same engine used in the Dodge Ram trucks as well.
I sold my ‘59 Chevy PU with a 235 in ‘08 or ‘09. I put it on the road as my daily in ‘93. The engine was rebuilt in ‘62, the last tag on the plates when I got it was ‘64. Hang with me now… I put around 9k miles a year on it, till I sold it. I just used Valvoline 30wt. Based on when the zinc levels dropped/etc. I put 30/40k miles on it with death oil. I adjusted the valves when I first got it fired up. Then again about a year later as a “check”. No ticking, flat cam lobe, etc. for the next 10 years or so. Kinda makes me think an additive with zinc isn’t needed once an engine and cam is broke in. I say that because I never knew about the removal of zinc and it’s need for older engines. Anyways I always like these oil discussions especially when @Blues4U chimes in. Get to learn things that way.
Or clever marketing? Either way I put a ton of miles on old stuff with flat tappet cams using the cheapest oil they sell and still going. If it makes you feel better to use expensive fancy oils or additives then have at it, I’ll keep doing what works for me.
Looks to me like zinc levels dropped around 2004, after you sold the truck. That said, I've also run plenty of flat tappet engines on low zinc oil without apparent issues. Obviously though different engines have different lobe ramps, valve spring pressures and what not. Just seems to me with oils now commonly available from the major makers, specifically formulated for flat tappet engines (or diesel if you prefer), at prices competitive with oil formulated for emissions, gas mileage and cat converters, it's a no brainer. Adding ZDDP in additive 'snake oil' form still seems to be debatable. As far as cost, I spent more at In-n-Out burger yesterday. Also agree, we've heard from many of the knowledgeable, experienced members, appreciate all the input.
That's a cool link. I read the section on zinc and it is right on the money. It's nice to see an oil company website with good technical info, almost every other oil co. website is dominated by marketing b.s. Thanks for the link, I'm going to check out more of it was I get the time.
Snake oil? You do realize GM used stop leak in new cars from the factory? Even had GM PN for it. I find it funny that those of us that have used the Lucas Products, and in my case, did extensive experimenting with it (well over 100K in multiple cars and race engines) will stand by the product yet so called experts want to throw out info from the web. I will take real world experience any day over what some folks think and feel emotionally about a product. Also reminds me of an old customer, a retired Petroleum Engineer. It was over 20 years ago when he came into the bike shop and asked for a lube recomendation. I mentioned the wax based lube we all used (still do) and he went off on and engineers petrochemical diatribe on how it can not work. Well, I ONLY had about 20 years experience under my belt so who was I to argue?! Fast forward to today, saw the same guy buying the lube I suggested in a friends shop and raving about how good it worked. Amazing, some grease monkey with experience vs. and engineering degree and who won out in the end................................................?
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