Hot Rods XO/PP Bonneville project

We haven't had traction problems so far just air drag on the ( barn lol ) we do have the bed partially covered and plan to cover it all over the next year as we prep for our next attempt in 2022.
Planning to run the Arkansas mile in early spring 2022

 

Agree no cheat just pushing rules to take an advantage u can find. Keep trying

 

Amish, your thoughts are good and some “advantages” maybe outside the box. John I’ll give you one that is not cheating but helped some one else.
20 years ago a friend asked me to look at a street roadster which a friend of his was running and was 3 mph under the record. (he has since became a very good friend of mine) The roadster was a 29 Ford with a full radiator filling the shell just like what your requirement is. I saw no hoses going to it and asked if it was only there to meet the rules. He told me yes and he used a water tank. Both stated that they knew you could not block off the radiator. I said that is true. I asked him if the radiator was ever going to be used; he said no.
On the inside of the radiator in front of the engine, I took a finger at the bottom tank, placed it on a row of fins, and dragged it up bending up all the fins in the row. I moved to the next row and did it again. They both looked at me and smiled and in unison said “is that legal”. I stood at the front of the car and said it appears to me you have a stock appearing radiator that filled the original opening and it was not blocked on the front or rear by any device. He gain 5 mph and passed impound inspection meeting all the rules for his class. Was air blocked from going thru the engine compartment, I don’t know.
I have no idea what the radiator mount looks like in a 63-64 Ford pick up. I don’t know if the are air vents to the interior that have been removed but there are ways of guiding air around a vehicle OR thru it for an advantage. Also one last thought it’s a possibility that’s John’s truck could be faster if it was raised up 6” allowing air to go under it easier since there is nothing allowed under the front. Many years ago that was proven.
If you ever get a chance to look at Karol Miller’s 1956 Ford at Bonneville in 56 using a less horsepower 312 Y-Block than John’s went over 150 and you could have rolled under it. The rear shackles were even reversed to get it higher. It was also driven from Texas to the salt and home again. Not everything is as it appears…

 

But do the rules say that you must flow coolant through the radiator (and can you cool the engine using a tank in the bed)? In NASCAR Cup racing we used the highest fin count radiator we could have made (and still cool the engine) at Daytona and Talladega with and extra capacity tank mounted behind the radiator. If you can place the coolant in a different location, the removal of some heat transfer under the hood should be beneficial. If you can effectively block the back of the radiator, you will help front air flow and increase front downforce. I have seen record setting cars in the Street Roadster class, which must have a minimum sq. in. area of grill opening, with creative ways of reducing airflow through that area pass record cert.

vic

 

Hah! Jimmy posting while I was typing - great minds think alike? No, just a lot of experience shared.

 

I don’t want to side track John’s great thread but want to help him increase his speeds in any way I can with what I’ve observed over the many years of LSR competition.
On some SCTA Street roadsters I’ve inspected there were vertical fuel tanks behind the radiator core within 1/8” and seals to the top and sides to the grille shell.
99% of LSR vehicles use water tanks and the required radiator for certain classes were for meeting the rules.
I learned an unbelievable amount of knowledge by inspecting for over 25 years. Mostly from the smiles of the owners when I would look over at them when spotting a questionable but not illegal installation.

 

R u allowed to tape up any body seams? Any gap in surface disturbs air flow & slows u down. I have seen pics of tape over hood seams, doors & the gap u have between cab & truck bed. At drags I ran tape around windshield ( more for looks at drags ) but every little bit could help. Are you allowed to put holes in truck bed to vent hi pressure air into bed & drop tail gate. Just crazy ideas

 

I think the TV show Mythbusters proved a tailgate in the down position increased drag by letting the stagnant air cushion built up in the box spill out and thus created more drag on the backside of the cab.

 

So John, attached you will find a pair of Trucks with different bed covers than the hamb Spl. The record setting GMC Bank's team build spent lots of time in GM's wind tunnel program. Also note the class legal rear bumper. Y-Block Tim's truck ran a bed cover like Bank's. Both trucks "Bricks" like yours. Put "Clutch-Dumpinm Dan" on the rear bumper fab project as he has some mad-fab skills and please tell him teach say hi !!

 

You remember correctly and they tried no tailgate and one of those mesh ones. Original tailgate closed was the best option.

 

Tim McMaster's truck was running in Production Pickup, the Banks truck clearly is not. Regarding a rear bumper, in PP you can run a factory rear bumper or not. A fabricated, non-factory bumper is illegal. That's why Tim's truck does not have a rear bumper. EDIT: A fabricated (non-stock) bumper is acceptable in PP if it is deemed to not offer an aerodynamic advantage. I stand corrected. Thank you @Nacifan .

The bed covers on all three trucks are similar in that they are open in the front third of the bed behind the cab. The varying sizes of the openings is noted, but only Tim's truck is a true comparison, because the Banks truck is a completely different body with a much smaller bed, running in a completely different class.

 

No, our field research has shown that micro-particles in the air become imbedded in the wax at speed and create drag. Instead we wet sand and polish the windshield up to 25,000 grit before each run. But we do like to "wax poetic" about all the killer mods we're gonna do.

 

That would be "poetry in motion", right?

 

Hey D-Russ,
Mid-Mini Production Pickup - /P/MP
E GMC Trucks Motorsports/Banks D Stringfellow (driver) 8/89 183.942 current record holder.
I'm suggesting there might be some useful aero insight in the Banks/GMC truck program
I've spoken with Don about this project and even have a signed poster in my shop.

 

I am sure Ford offered a factory airdam in the early 60s for these trucks like GMC did for the Cyclone?

 

You know @Nacifan , the ground effects on that S15 Syclone don't appear to be from a factory S15 Syclone. They look more like S10 Cameo ground effects. The truck clearly has an S15 grille, and it has GMC sponsorship, so I'll assume they're calling it an S15. So is mixing and matching the best aero stuff from both Chevrolet and GMC legal in the production mid/mini pickup class?

You know what else? A quick Google search reveals that GMC never made/sold an extended cab S15 Syclone, so is adding ground effects and a spoiler to a truck that never came with them legal in the P/MP class?

 

All is fine until you get protested. When Steve M was building his OT Rampage he wanted headlight covers like a lot of the Mopars with that same mini truck/ car platform. Well, he was told the headlight covers HAD TO BE OEM MOPAR, not just plexi. I helped him scour the country looking for a set. In the case of Banks, that air dam may have been a GM performance part and therefor legal to run. Depends whose record you beat or who you piss off

 

That would be a question for the Tech head for Production Class. PLUS, what was done 5, 10,15,20 years ago may or may not be legal today.

I know what is currently legal for Tims Unibody since I helped him for several years. We were going on a D/P record set by a 90s Chevy with basically a normally aspirated Indy v6 based on the v6 offered in those trucks. Tough record with an antiquated yblock

Crazy huh?

 

No body directs you what vehicle body and brand to buy, build and race. John has chosen the Ford unibody to run in XO/PP.
With my knowledge of GMC’s and and having run 143 in our stock bodied 1940 Chevrolet coupe in total street trim I would have chosen a 48-54 GMC pickup up and feel that I could compete in the class. When I did that I only had 11-1 compression where I now have 14-1 and a totally different exhaust system. I understand parasitic loads and resistants more now since running our roadster since the mid 80’s.
Classic classes really show where the choice of bodies really make a difference especially when lack of horsepower is a factor.
I don’t know about the Ford overhead valve 6’s and when the my started or whether there a better body out there that is more aero. Those choices are made before the decision to compete in LSR. Our 40 came along as the Vintage body classes were coming back; if choosing now I would pick different..

 

Agreed. My earlier point is that perhaps the current record holder for E/PMP according to the class rules is not legal, and has simply never been protested.

 

Torque and the proper gears.
Tune up can be tough over there, and next year the salt may not be the same.
As stated not much you can do to cheat the air with the stock body.
The gear head in me would be working under the hood.

 

Something I learned quickly which you may already know. The best air to run in is as early as possible in the morning. Every run made by a horsepower limited combination is a waste of time once the density altitude is over 7000 feet.
The reduction in air resistance as the temps rise is not a good thing for a normally aspirated engine. The air resistance is certainly less but that's no help with out horse power to move the vehicle along.
Ronnieroadster

 

"Agreed. My earlier point is that perhaps the current record holder for E/PMP according to the class rules is not legal, and has simply never been protested."

Well, that ran in 1999 -- and you got 24 hours to Protest. I think that time is up.

But -- I guess the secret to not getting Protested is running at World of Speed. None of your competitors are there and the results don't come in for days. Ooops, too late. I got two of them unwound across the years. A real hassle. Both cars had been deemed illegal at SpeedWeek, but nothing ever noted in their Log Books (huh???). So they just ran at USFRA and no one knew the difference.

 

One doesn’t need to be protested if the correct questions are asked during inspection, first impounds, or after back up runs. Many have been removed from impounds by the guys working it because they are familiar with the type of vehicle. Same for inspection; a knowledgeable inspector can find/see something and ask the competitor.
John needs a few more miles an hour and can possibly find it with non illegal suggestions. It’s tough in and production body class but they are out there an some told already,

 

Having run this same body style I wish you guys all the luck in the world. You truly are pushing a brick. jimmy and stan have decades more experience than I do. Listen to them, I appreciate all the input they have given us.

 

Arkansas mile is canceled as Steve And CJ are in the hospital with covid. Please pray for there recovery.
Today we started to do the mods to lower the truck
5 inches in front and 3 in the rear. We replaced the rear springs today and layed out the plan for the C Notch on the rear frame as well as what is needed to lower the front. Photos will follow as we progress on these modifications.
Stay tuned as the off season is under way
Hoping to be ready for Arkansas in the late spring..

 

Prayers sent.

 

Hello John. Hope all goes well with Steve and cj. This covid is not nice. My daughter and two of her sons have had it. She is still struggling with breath, tiered ness , and headaches. All the best wishes. Tim.

 

I spent the day machining some spacers to align the after market brake drums to the hub.. see photos
Also started removing the front axel to be replaced with a Nastalga Sid's 3" dropped axel.

 

Finished removing the front axel this morning