I don't think that's entirely true; I go to more than a few shows and cruises and a well-executed custom will still draw more of a crowd over a stocker. It's more complicated than that IMO... One, the HAMB isn't a particularly 'friendly' place for customs. Dominated by hot rodders, customs are a minority. There's a fair number of members who are outright hostile towards customs to some degree. Comments like 'Why would you modify [fill in the blank] when (pick one)[it's perfect the way it is] [ it already looks custom] [some other reason why it should be left untouched]' have appeared here much more than once. Several of us noted that the recent 'Canted Quads Poll' may have had a markedly different result if the voting had been limited to people who owned or wanted a custom rather than open to everyone. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but if you don't 'get' what customs are about, should you decide for the custom guys? Two, and I hate to harp on this, the idea of a 'Traditional Custom' is a oxymoron. Over on the hot rod side here, if you ask a question about what is 'traditional', the most common answer is it is what was 'commonly' done, with this definition pulled out of a dictionary. Ok, I get that more or less, and that is actually pretty easy to apply to rods. But applying that to a custom? By definition, a custom is a one-off, unique, a personal statement, anything but 'common'. How can you reconcile that? I don't think the HAMB is doing a very good job of it... This has led IMO to a 'sameness' in many of the cars you see. The same parts, used over and over, the only 'original' aspect is the combination used. One of the things that always surprises me is one of the signature features of the Hirohata Merc, it's custom-built grill/turn signals, is seldom attempted in any form by current builders. Most Merc builds have become more of a competition about details rather than styling statements, a influence from the hot rod side. This is also reflected in posts where erstwhile custom builders ask about which parts they should choose. If you have to ask which would look better, you don't have a clear vision of what you're building. If you're building your car by committee, you'll likely end up with a lowest-common-denominator build. And there's also been some attempts at re-writing history. The '37 LaSalle posted to this thread earlier as a 'custom' really doesn't qualify IMO. Yes, it's a beautiful car, very well executed, but as near as I can tell it's nearly stock externally, with only three or maybe four visible mods; it's been decked and had different taillights installed, skirts, lowered, and maybe a very slight top chop. It still has stock hubcaps. This car would have received zero magazine coverage 'back in the day' as it's a lowrider, not a custom. Now don't get the idea I'm down on lowriders, I'm simply pointing out that these types of cars weren't part of the 'traditional' custom scene back then. And they've never been about actual body modifications in any case. And let's face it; in 30 years this hobby will likely be as dead as most of it's current participants, even if it hasn't been legislated out of existence.
The LaSalle is chopped, flush fit skirts, front wheel opening reshaped, nosed, decked, new taillights. Not sure how that doesn't qualify it as a custom?
You make a good point about the details. The bar has been raised so high in terms of build quality that even traditional cars aren't traditional anymore. Door gaps measured with calipers, the underside of floor pans blocked and painted like a mirror, impeccable upholstery inside and out, not to mention chops and body mods metal finished to a coach-built quality, etc. None of that stuff is traditional. They'd pound out a rough shape with a hammer and slather it with 30 lbs of lead. Some were better than others. To a degree, people are building the same cars, but just trying to build the same car better. I also feel your point about the new "customs", which is to take a stock car, put it on bags, and call it a custom. I think in the common vernacular, the term "custom" has simply been used to identify a full-bodied car, as opposed to a rod. We understand here that there is a difference in verbiage.
I looked up a picture of a stocker; that car was nearly indistinguishable... If anything, it resembles a pre-war job but those weren't that stock appearing.
The mods don't slap you in the face but if you actually look closely at the car compared to a stocker the changes are pretty obvious and there are lots.
I like a lot of work on customs when it is done with a good eye and workmanship that suggest "it could have come from the factory that way." That applies to chassis work as well. Garish, obvious and ostentatious work, not so much.
South edge of Guthrie. I also have a 56 dodge I plan on doing a huge custom treatment to. the rear chrome surrounding the tail lights is pot metal. I don't want to eliminate this part. I have seen some customs where they removed them and molded all this in, I don't like it that way. I do plan to remove the chrome on truck lid on my 55, and do metal work with some scalloped type reversed "vents" . But some chrome needs to be retained to keep the style. To remove all the chrome on the hood, I believe takes away from its look. At least I think!
Sounds like you have a plan. Stick to it, you'll get there. Unfortunately, there are no good chrome shops in OK.
Out of a whopping ten pages (so far), I don't believe that I've seen two people agreeing 100% on what actually passes (in their eyes) as a "traditional custom". If we can't even come up with a consensus on basic terminology, we sure as hell aren't going to come up with any answers to the original question ...
Basically any traditional appearing car except not on air suspension or modern steering/suspension components, or with a modern or injected powertrain.
I am fairly new to the custom world, but I do think I have a decent handle on what a "traditional" custom is. To me it is a pre-1962 car or truck. A mild custom has the emblems removed, handles shaved, nosed, decked, frenched antennas, skirts and statically dropped, no bags. A full custom has all of the items listed above and could have a chop, grafted fenders, headlight swap, frenched lake pipes, radiused hood,deck lid etc. and always nice paint, unless it's under construction, then primer spots are allowed.
You're close.... The mild custom could have all you mentioned plus a grill change in the original opening and lens changes for taillights, maybe a bolt-on change like the Merc wagon lights popular on your Ford. No reshaping of the original body. The full custom had all you list except for the top chop. The Miss Taboo '56 Chev is a perfect example. Radical customs was where top chops, sectioning, and channeling came in, along with the scratch-built cars. At least this is how they were show-judged 'back in the day'. Of course, top chops have become so common these days that you'll find chopped cars that excluding the chop would probably have fit in each category. I won't agree with the '62 cut-off as near-new cars still got modified until about '65 using '63/64 cars. You rarely saw anything newer than that until a bit later. IIRC there was a brief customs revival in the '70s that used newer cars but it faded rather quickly. Anybody remember when R&C tried very hard to jump-start customs in the early 70s? They did a feature build on both Spence Murray's pre-war styled '36 Ford and a full-custom build on a new AMC Javelin which I avidly followed. I wonder where that Javelin ended up...
For me the definition of a traditional custom would be one built with parts no newer than the period that the tradition is from, be that 40's, 50's or 60's etc. You wouldn't have 59 Bonneville taillights on a traditional 40's custom.
So a traditional rod wouldn't have a Vega steering box, amiright? Pretty sure the first Vega came out in 1970 or 1971.
And that's the predominate definition here. But what is forgot is the 'style' represented by a specific era had more to do with the limitation of available parts than necessarily the desires of the builders, particularly the early cars. You also had cars from each era where the builder went further, sourcing odd-ball bits or scratch-building parts that didn't exist at the time. Many of those cars are now icons. On a hot rod, it is about the parts because they're primarily mechanical creations. On a custom, it should be about the look, not the parts. IMO that's the fundamental difference...
Hoods closed on all customs. Keep it quiet and tell everyone you are running a Caddy 365. Mine is going to have a modern driveline, but nobody but me and the 300,000 hambers that read this thread will know.
So the way you put it there then modern suspension and drivetrain shouldn't matter if it still has "the look"... which is where I fall. I drive my cars. Daily. So my custom will look period but won't be underneath. And that is absolutely fine with me.
My dad used to say that all hot rods are customs but not all customs are hot rods. I think that when we think of cars traditional or otherwise we forget than anything personalized or upgraded is customized. That does not make anything that is customized a "custom". Building a custom at one time did require an updated drivetrain (think very early customs) but that soon gave way to aesthetics and modern customs (think post war here not new millennium) became an exercise in aesthetics. That is work. Reshaping and messaging panels, creating different grill treatments often both fore and aft, paint beyond your basic primer or Maaco job. Way easier to build a beater hot rod than even attempt to build even a street quality custom let alone a show or magazine quality car. My hat is off to those who do.
I think we have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of members here who are into customs like traditional customs but very few actually want to own or build one. Explains why customs seem to be dying on this site.
As far as drivetrain/suspension goes, that ship has already sailed IMO. Even on the hot rod side; the supply of 56+ year-old parts isn't infinite. When Vern Tardel started using T5 trannys it should have been obvious to everyone that compromises needed to be made if this wasn't to become a contest as to who could track down and afford the purely vintage parts. Not to mention how that would limit how much you could treat them as actual hot rods, not just be static displays. A OHV V8 in front of a '39 toploader isn't a recipe for reliability if you have a heavy right foot. But I'm thinking more in terms exterior parts used on customs. Why should there be a sharp year cut-off if you can get the 'look' with newer parts?
LOL I guess because it is pretty difficult to make a '69 Caprice look like a '50 merc. Sorry you walked headlong into that one. Here is an interesting thought along those lines though. Steve is onto something sort of. Let us suppose that I decide to customize a '59 Volvo. It does resemble a 3/4 '46-8 Ford. it could be tweaked as nicely as the Ford that it resembles but I can guarantee if you took it to a KKOA event it would get snubbed. No amount of lead in the world will make it a Ford, not even a cut down Ford.
I'd say it's more that many members 'like' customs but don't fully understand the ethos of actually building one. They aren't hot rods... They can have hot-rodded drivetrains, but that's not their reason for being.
actually a lot of that depends on the era one is shooting for. For example the original customs (pre-war) were built to emulate high end road cars built on a blue collar workers economical platform. So cheaper car with upgraded grill, light, interior, and etc. treatment and a hotted up mill to challenge the road car HP. For example when I first joined the HAMB I helped with the resortation of a Westergard custom called the Fade Away. Based on a '39 Merc built in '40. It sported a full house flatty backed up by a '39 tranny with Zephyr gears. Sometime along into the '50s the drivetrain became less important. That could have been economy driven we had two recessions in that decade.
I'll go along with that. But the fact remains it was the bodywork that made it a custom, not the drivetrain. And in the mid-'50s cars started to come with hi-po motors from the factory and even the milder versions had more than adequate power.
I have a 1962 customized Volvo. I've been snubbed here - @RichardHead posted 'NOT AN AMERICAN CAR" and my build thread disappeared. You have to pick your event. "Never seen gas run off a drive shaft before" - Host hotel parking lot -Lead Ain't Dead 2020 Subtitle: Why retired electrical engineers should not do mechanical work p.s. I'm the 76 year old belly on the left - I need to either lose weight or put lowering blocks on my creeper. I had instant help - drove me to Oreilly for parts and would not let me pay for the beer. p.s. I was very humbled to win this award. Thanks, Mickey I would love to hear suggestions for custom friendly events, probably take a pass on rockabilly events - I was a teenager back in the day, Google "square", there is my picture... My event wish list so far. 1. My 3rd trip to Lead Ain't Dead - Sept 10 & 11, 2021 - Dewey, OK (North of Tulsa) This inspired me to customize my Volvo. About 2,200 miles round trip - maybe some side trips - The Volvo drives fine, AC blowing cool air, cruise control set at 75 MPH. https://straykatkustoms.com/lead-ain't-dead Don't miss the convoy to Daryl Starbirds museum. 2. 14th Annual Winfield-Watson Gathering - Oct 16, 2021 - Mojave, CA (not near anywhere...) About 1,230 miles round trip, so far, this is the closest (not-restricted) event to me. Of course, in the frenched Volvo. I took a weekend class from Gene about a year and a half ago, shortly after my first Lead Ain't Dead. Set the "wheels in my head turning" - Bought an English Wheel on my way home. TRUTH IN ADVERTISING STATEMENT - I mangled a lot of 18 Gauge cold rolled sheet metal, and then sent the body work out to Smooth Engineering. Thanks, Ed Russ EDIT: @straykatkustoms
The Jalopy Journal
