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HEMI Tech - Cooling Systems

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by scootermcrad, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. sdimpala64
    Joined: Mar 5, 2009
    Posts: 52

    sdimpala64
    Member
    from SD CA

    I'm going to be using the stock water pump. Was just wondering if anybody on the board had bought a "new" water pump from ebay. They were not available new until recently.
     
  2. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,174

    73RR
    Member

    I had not heard of the 'new' pumps until your post. Thanks! The price looks to be decent.
    The new pieces will definately affect my rebuilding business but that is OK. The supply of 51-54 pumps has been nearly zero for many years with many folks swapping to 'something else' because of the rebuild costs or that they simply did not have a core. It is good to have new stuff.

    .
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  3. petew
    Joined: Jul 21, 2010
    Posts: 221

    petew
    Member
    from Mebane, NC

    54264C63-503D-4139-B74C-A4B81BFC8190.jpeg I have a 354 in my 30 Ford and had some cooling issues . Did some measuring of my pulleys and found that my waterpump was running at 80% of my crank speed.
    Got on eBay and purchased a 440 Mopar 2 grove water pump pulley and a 340 crank pulley that is larger then the water pump pulley. The waterpump pulley required opening up the pilot hole and the crank pulley required drilling one hole so it would match the 354 pattern.
    The result is an overdriven waterpump and no more cooling issues. Another byproduct is that the fan turns faster at idle which helps as well.
    Original waterpump castings show up on the bay from time to time. I bought one , had it rebuilt and have it on the shelf for when my current one goes.
    Original pulleys are on the left , replacements on the right.
     
    INVISIBLEKID and HemiDeuce like this.
  4. 392
    Joined: Feb 27, 2007
    Posts: 1,206

    392
    Member

    Nice info petew. Is the distance from mount surface to outside the same as original. If so I might look into changing mine.
     
  5. petew
    Joined: Jul 21, 2010
    Posts: 221

    petew
    Member
    from Mebane, NC

    Yes distance is the same and the pulleys lined up just fine.
     
  6. 392
    Joined: Feb 27, 2007
    Posts: 1,206

    392
    Member

    petew could you give me the diameters. I've found some I could get but need the diameter. and Im guessing a 318 would be in the same category as 340 thanks
     
  7. jack_pine
    Joined: Jan 20, 2007
    Posts: 353

    jack_pine
    Member
    from Motor City

    Hey, folks....doing another Dodge and 2 ideas I can't stop thinking about:

    If you want to run a Chevy water pump, there are few (none, afaik) options for a traditional-looking water crossover. If you want to debate the merits of running a Chevy pump, keep scrolling. I'm not your guy.

    1. It occurred to me that the Dodge water crossover could be separated from the water pump housing and with not a ton of work could be a standalone crossover, with bypass hose going to water pump, if needed.

    That's the first pic below. My idea is to cut it off where it joins the water pump housing and see what is there. Goal is to turn it into a Chrysler-style crossover, separated from the large casting. Anyone try this before?

    2. Adapting a Buick water crossover to the Dodge. I realize there is an issue regarding the span of the two not being equal. The Buick's bolt pattern is about 45 degrees off from the Dodge; an aluminum adapter could bolt to the Dodge head and accept the Buick fasteners without having to get too thick.

    In sure I would have to slice off the middle where the thermostat housing is to adjust for width.

    Has anyone given this a look? 20210221_195011.jpeg

    Sent from my SM-G986U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    loudbang likes this.
  8. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,174

    73RR
    Member

  9. jack_pine
    Joined: Jan 20, 2007
    Posts: 353

    jack_pine
    Member
    from Motor City

  10. jack_pine
    Joined: Jan 20, 2007
    Posts: 353

    jack_pine
    Member
    from Motor City

    Hi, folks. 1954 331 4 bbl on my run stand. While I tap the holes on the crank flange I thought I would ask what y'all are using for lower radiator hose hookup.

    As you can see, the cover has provision for a thermostat housing-looking thing; however, it looks a bit small to me.

    The trans cooler was long gone by the time I got it.

    Any ideas? .pending-1617726465-20210330_094537~2.jpeg

    Sent from my SM-G986U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  11. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    thermostat houses goes there for cars with a stick.
     
  12. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,174

    73RR
    Member

    ...are you sure about that George...?
    The inlet side of the pump would be where the oem trans cooler mounts and connects to the rad.

    Jon, I have had some flanges laser cut to match the hole and bolts and and welded on a 1¼" pipe elbow and a short piece of tube for the lower hose.
     
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  13. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    An assumption. I've seen a few cars done that way. Looked like a normal thermostat housing.
     
  14. something to consider. when my 354 was running hot i did all the usual things to the cooling system with some results. it was when i put a oil cooler on the car that i noticed the biggest drop in temperature. it was good for 30 degrees of water temp. it worked so well going down the road i added a fan for stop and go traffic.
     
  15. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,174

    73RR
    Member

    Yup, oil, either engine or trans, gets hot. 'Good' trans oil temp is up to 250 or so and engine oil can be well above that so a separate cooler is a good idea.
    Some of the heating problems that I have had calls on were solved after looking at the water pump speed.
    Some of the shiverlay conversions were simply spinning the pump too fast. Cavitation is also a huge problem at high rpm.
     
    racer-x and Hnstray like this.
  16. SEAAIRE354
    Joined: Sep 7, 2015
    Posts: 537

    SEAAIRE354
    Member

    What should the pulley diameters or ratio be ? I’m building one now and unfortunately went the Chevy pump route as it saves me 3/4” and I need all the room I can get. And I’m trying to use OEM pulleys instead of the billet conversation stuff.
     
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  17. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,174

    73RR
    Member

    Since you are using shiverlay parts then you should use the same, or similar, size/ratio as found on the doner. Reference to Mopar crank pulleys are either early or late and that only means there is a one-bolt offset in the bolt circle; a round file does the job going either direction. Multi-groove sheaves can often be trimmed to single/double groove.
    The speed of water flow through the radiator is also controlled by the t-stat opening size. Restrictors can be installed to slow the flow if needed. The EarlyHemi does not make more heat than any other engine so you should only need to be concerned about the 'new' radiator having somewhat similar cooling capacity to the wp donor vehicle. Other considerations are things like fan shrouds and air flow restrictions into the radiator.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
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  18. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

  19. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    I wonder if that can be narrowed to use on 331/354 stock block and heads to replace OEM water manifold when using Chevy pump?

    There used be such crossovers available. I have one, a PAW as I recall, but could use another and don’t know of a source. Anyone?

    Ray
     
  20. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,174

    73RR
    Member

    Some time ago 'someone' started a thread about re-popping the PAW pieces. Not sure what happened to the project but it might still be out there....
     
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.
  21. Eddie
    Joined: Apr 2, 2006
    Posts: 562

    Eddie
    Member
    from Georgia

    Sounds like another product for Arias to consider since they clearly have the ability.
    Eddie
     
  22. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,174

    73RR
    Member

    Just an update on the new pumps for the 51-54 331.
    Speedway shows re-pops in the newest street rod catalogue.
    No, haven't bought one.
     
    Just Gary likes this.
  23. Distracted
    Joined: Nov 12, 2016
    Posts: 16

    Distracted

    20230417_120759.jpg 20230417_120811.jpg 20230417_152633.jpg I'm in the process of installing a 354 into my 30 model A. My goal is for it to have fenders with stock wheel base. In order to minimize firewall modifications shrinking the engine length is a priority. Has anyone considered a Zips or Snow White water pump riser approach for the hemi ? I've been mocking one up using a chevy inline six pump which reduces the original water pump length by 3.62" while also raising the fan 5". I'm not sure it will work but I figured it's worth trying. Any thoughts?
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 26, 2023
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  24. d2_willys
    Joined: Sep 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,285

    d2_willys
    Member
    from Kansas

    You may want to cover the transmission cooler on early hemis. Goes between the water pump and lower radiator hose.
     
  25. Distracted
    Joined: Nov 12, 2016
    Posts: 16

    Distracted

    D2, I don't understand what you are referring to. Once completed all water passages will be sealed.
     
  26. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    The 55-56 4 leg W/Ps had a tranny cooler on it that the lower radiator hose connected to.
     
  27. Distracted
    Joined: Nov 12, 2016
    Posts: 16

    Distracted

    I'll be using a manual transmission for this setup, no trans cooler required.
     
  28. 8B66E4C1-641F-4ACD-B29E-5F41FC09EE14.jpeg So I was down this road once before.
    It definitely does solve some problems and creates different ones.
    The biggest issue I couldn’t see how to go around was “the space” that wants to be occupied by both the riser and the crossover.
    The obvious thought is to get the crossover infront of the riser. Then it’s a water pump, it’s pulley,, belts and fan in the same spaces as the crossover.
    What’s your ideas on that one ?
    I never thought out a good solution. Maybe I just gave up too early
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2023
  29. Distracted
    Joined: Nov 12, 2016
    Posts: 16

    Distracted

    31 Vicky, I agree the cross over is a challenge. I haven't welded the riser because I'm not sure if the 5" change in height will cause an interference between the fan and the underside of the radiator upper tank. If it is a problem depending on where I position the engine vertically in the frame I'll modify the height of the riser. Once I finalize the riser height, I can focus on the cross over.
    You are right the real estate in front of the riser is minimal so I don't think that area is an option. Routing it behind the riser would also be challenging. At this point I think the only option is to go over the top of the riser. I'm thinking of making a riser from aluminum plate or stainless tubing. I just have to figure out how to design and fabricate or machine it so the it doesn't look ugly. I'll incorporated the radiator return hose and inline thermostat in the cross over arrangment. An other option I've thought about is machining flanged hose bibs that will bolt to each head and running two return radiator hoses like a flathead V8 (maybe kind of funky). Anyway, thank you for your input, I can always use the help.
     
  30. The flat head type approach is probably the best option. There’s some small thermostats that could work well with 1” hoses and some custom housing holders . One thing I couldn’t confirm or deny was what happens when one side opens before the other. My thoughts were that it would flood the open side with cool coolant and have unequal temps in 1/2 the block.
    Theoretically you want even temps in each side. and that’s nearly impossible with two thermostats. Maybe it’s not an issue as it worked on the flat heads. My buddy has a XKE and nothing but trouble with 2 sides having unequal temps constantly
     

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