I have a 1964 Pontiac 389. I have a line on a Post '65 Wedge Bell housing. Can I use the bell housing on the 389. Im pretty sure there was a change from 1964 to 1965 but I dont know what it is. Is it the block bolt pattern, the starter mounting, the flywheel, etc? Is there a goofy combo that makes it work? Thanks for any help.
on the early bellhousing the starter mounts to the bellhousing, on the later the starter mounts to the engine block. Putting a later bellhousing onto an earlier engine results in having no place to bolt the starter, ask me how I know.
First easy step is to check your 389 to see if it has provisions for a block mounted starter. If it does you are good, if it doesn’t (maybe it’s a ‘63 or earlier) then you can go with an adapter or buy a bell housing with starter mounting provisions. Regards, Randy Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
Thanks for the help. Gotta go out in the shop tomorrow and see where the starter mounts. Sounds like the change is somewhere between 63 to 65. Engine came out of a 64 Grand Prix. There may just be a chance.
The 389s used in the 64 GTO had the block mounted starter. The big 1964 cars used the bellhousing mounted starter. But, the block was the same for both applications. From what I have read, essentially all 64 389 blocks are drilled & tapped for the block mounted starter regardless. You are likely in good shape IMO. Be interesting to see what you find.
Did the V8s come with different bore sizes on the flywheel? I bought flywheels from two different guys that are supposed to be for Pontiac V8s. They are both the same size and have 166 tooth ring gears. The pattern to bolt them to the crankshaft appears the same after a quick check. The bore in the center is different though.
Well I just got in from checking the block, and I see no provisions for a block mounted starter. Maybe it was a manual vs. automatic deal where they used the block mounted vs bell mounted starter. This was an 389/auto Gran Prix. Seriously thinking of building an adapter for the starter provision now.
Did you check the driver's side for a starter mount holes As far as flywheels: The change on center holes was in '63. The 62, down had a small diameter crank register while 63 and later has a bigger hole. Might try some of the Pontiac boards to find a small adapter ring to make the later flywheel fit the earlier crank.
@ekimneirbo I just stumbled upon this place selling mini starters. Scroll down the page and you'll find the crank register spacer rings. https://butlerperformance.com/c-1234775-engine-components-external-starters.html
The Pontiac flywheels came in two sizes 2 3/4 and 2 1/2", (I think!), bores. I used a Ram 1557LW on my '66 389. This is the 2 3/4" flavor. I have heard of guys drilling and tapping the earlier blocks for the starter. I have come across instructions on the net for doing so some time back but who knows where. Best of luck, I love Pontiacs!
That is what I did after finding that there was no place to mount the starter. I made it out of 1/4" plate sandwiched between the bellhousing and the block. The part that the starter bolts to needed a little reinforcement and figuring out where to make the starter bolt holes caused a little worry. After making the adapter I got to learn all about the different solenoid locations on Pontiac starters. After getting it all sorted out it worked fine for a number of years.
Thanks guys for the flywheel info. I'm gonna post something for the ops benefit even though its for my Cadillac 500. I have converted a Pontiac flywheel so that it can be used on a Cadillac. Standard flywheels for Cads are scarce and new ones are expensive. My suggestion is to look on the Powermaster site at the mini starters. As one poster mentioned above, the clocking of the solenoid can be an issue. The mini starter allows you to clock the solenoid whereever you need it. Another issue is "sufficient" engagement of the starter gear into the ring gear. On my Cad conversion, this was a concern because the ring gear on the Pontiac sat a little further away from the blocks rear face. With a stock style starter the support on the end of the nose would not clear the ring gears far side. With the mini starter there is no support to deal with. The point of all this is that if there are no holes in the bottom of the block face, You can probably just drill your own. That would probably let you use a stock starter if the solenoid is clocked right. You could also just use the mini-starter and probably have fewer adaption issues. Here are a few pictures to show what I'm talking about. I sat my block on some saw horses/plywood and put the crank in place using the old used bearings. Then mounted the flywheel. This gives you a very accessable view of everything and would make drilling and alignment much easier to do correctly. Remenber to give a little space between the two gears when engaged, Then shims can be used to get it just right. Use the correct bolts (which come with the mini starter)that have the knurl on them. Notice in one picture that the starter is engaged and turning the flywheel. Thats why I suggest this method of adapting a starter, you can see everything and check everything very easily this way. If you decide to do this, while you have good access, it would be a good time to check the bellhousing alignment to the crank and get it right too. You should not have to address the starter nose problem, but I posted this so you will know to at least check it if you use an oem style starter. Edit: One note......with the mini starter you can take a small screwdriver and wedge the gear out to full extension while setting the starter in place. Just make a shim to hold it out while you work.
Good news! Good news! Coo-coo-coo-o-ooo! Now that I understand how Pontiac starters mount, it appears I have the mounting holes. I thought those were holes for the lower bell housing. Thanks for all the help! My first Pontiac engine, so the curve is steep!
Here's a couple pics of my setup. The 'bell uses a home made block plate and a stock '66 GTO starter. This puts the solenoid up top and tucked in just fine. Mine's a little weird because of the Ford trans with the Jeep top but the rest is stock Pontiac.
@Koz thats a nice looking setup and means I should be able to use all stock parts.....which is nice. And I should be able to get that Blowproof bell I like! Which is even nicer! Yes @Poncho60, and I am happy your prediction was accurate too! Thank you
If using an original pre-1961 manual transmission setup, be advised the only starter that will fit is one for manual transmission. The starters for automatic transmission are longer and won't fit up. I've been lucky, so far all my Pontiacs with manual transmissions have included the original starter. Some years back I stumbled across a magazine feature where the author was able to use an aftermarket gear reduction starter for a Ford after fabricating the correct adapter. I THINK it was in Hot Rod Mechanics but it could have been in Rodder's Digest.
64 blocks more than GTO code ones have block mounted starter holes I picked up a 64 base Catalina 2v 3 spd manual code one and it is drilled so hence why I keep it. 65 bell then will work just needs to have the holes but if its 63 and back forget it.
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