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Technical Is this REALLY a proportioning valve or not? Ford M/C and stuff

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kilohertz, Mar 14, 2021.

  1. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    Hi Boys,

    I have been researching and scrounging wreckers to try to find a M/C that will work on my 49 F-47 with the 8.8 rear and GM front calipers. I have a 2001 Explorer pedal, booster and M/C installed but just found out the M/C is bubble flare, metric and I will need 3 adapters to use my Chevy C1500 proportioning valve. I have several old Ford F-150s here and have found that Rangers use the same M/C setup. I just need to know if this M18x1.0 big "nut" which is on the rear out of the M/C is really a proportioning valve, then I can ditch the big Chevy unit and just run lines from the output of this thing to the rear drums. It has a spring and some pretty intricate pieces inside, I'm thinking it's a proportioning valve but would like to hear from those who know for sure.

    Cheers
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 15, 2021
  2. oldiron 440
    Joined: Dec 12, 2018
    Posts: 3,299

    oldiron 440
    Member

    I just used an ajustable propositioning valve , not a fan of OEM fixed valves.
     
    RichT in Sanazay likes this.
  3. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    Or is it possible this is just a residual valve?

    Anyone know for sure?

    Cheers
     
  4. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    I thought I would share what I found out about this device so that others may benefit from this knowledge. I know it will make my brake system install a lot simpler.

    I found this on a Ford Bronco website, one of the moderators answered pretty much the same question I asked here. It was also mentioned that this also acts a residual valve for the drum circuit.

    I hope this benefits others.

    Cheers

    ==========
    in 96 Workshop Manual

    Fluid Control Valve, Brake Master Cylinder
    The brake master cylinder fluid control valve (2C161) regulates the hydraulic pressure in the rear brake system. It is located on the brake master cylinder (2140) and is screwed into the rearmost outlet port. When the brake pedal (2455) is applied, the full brake fluid pressure passes through the brake master cylinder fluid control valve to the rear brake system until the valve's split point is reached. Above its split point, the brake master cylinder fluid control valve begins to reduce the hydraulic pressure to the rear brakes, creating a balanced braking condition between the front and rear wheels (1007) to minimize rear wheel lockup during hard braking.

    In case of the front brake system malfunction, the brake master cylinder fluid control valve has a bypass feature which allows full hydraulic pressure to the rear brake system.
    ===========
    mastercyl9496.jpg
     
    TagMan and Tman like this.

  5. Eliminating the valve question is the bubble flair the only reason not to just move forward? I know bubble flair tools are not just in every tool box but they are very common. I know my kit has them in it. Another possible way to get around multiple fittings is to get a length of bubble flair and cut it and add a standard flair to the other end going to the next factory fitting using the standard double flair line nut. No adapters needed at all.
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  6. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    Well, I actually have already installed the 2001 MC and used the adapter to go from metric bubble to SAE and use the GM prop valve but discovered there is no residual in it, and I want to have the 10# for the rear drums. I already have several of the older 87-96 type MCs with the above mentioned PRV so it is an easy swap to put that in, eliminates the big Chev block and makes for a nicer looking install...kind of a long to way say "no", it's not the bubble flares keeping me from using the current MC. :rolleyes:

    cheers
     
    Pist-n-Broke likes this.
  7. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    PS, I should also note that this brake system started as a month long search for the right pedal for my truck, which this is and fits perfectly. I thought keeping the whole system together would be best as it all fits together, but as I am learning, found out the hydraulic side is a whole other kettle of fish. I then figured out that the Ford MCs I am considering, seem to be the same bolt spacing and piston depth to push rod, so the 98 Ranger MC will bolt right up to this 2001 vacuum booster and pedal and will give me the correct pedal, with the correct hydraulic setup, the proportioning/residual valve in my first post. The reason for the Ranger is it is the only MC I can find with the lines exiting on the drivers side.

    Cheers
     
  8. V8 Bob
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,966

    V8 Bob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The valve in question is called a screw-in proportioning valve, and in this case with the added "tip" valve feature. Screw in valves became popular because of the need for two prop valves in cross-split hydraulic systems, mainly on front drive vehicles, but also found on vertical split systems as the one the O.P. is using. This master cylinder has the primary portion going to the drum rears. In the event of a secondary front axle brake failure, the primary piston will move farther than normal and "tip" the small extension protruding out the prop valve, bypassing any proportioning and allowing full M/C pressure to the rears.
    This valve's operational specs may not work well with a custom system and can be "gutted", allowing an adjustable prop valve, which is what I would recommend anyway.
    I have no knowledge of screw-in prop valves having any residual effect, especially since internal residuals were gone by the mid-'70s because of wheel cylinder cup expanders.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
    Blues4U likes this.
  9. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    Bob, so glad you jumped in here, was hoping you would chime in. Thank you so much for helping me figure this out. I have been reading and learning lots since out last conversation and thought I had it mostly figured out. I'm not in a hurry to get this done and am certainly enjoying learning all about brake systems.

    So I think I have 2 choices based on parts I already have. I could leave the 2001 Explorer MC with the 1990 GM combo valve which is already mounted in the truck, but is a tad clunky looking, but should function correctly as the MC came from a 4 wheel ABS vehicle, or I could put on the '98 Ranger MC with the screw in proportioning valve and run the lines directly out of the MC to the wheel cylinders and calipers, and perhaps install a 10# residual in the rear section.

    I like things to look clean and neat, and I think the second option would achieve this. Attached is a picture of my current setup.

    Your thoughts?

    thank you!

    DSC_7851.JPG
     
  10. That's a pretty good size Booster. I see you have a Vacuum gauge on the Motor. Is it making enough to keep the booster loaded?
     
  11. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    Pist n Broke....

    Well damn you are about 3 steps ahead of me. I hadn't thought about that....At idle I have about 17" Hg...I don't know if that's enough or not....this is all a learning experience for me. It's (so far) a stock 239 Flathead.

    What are you thinking? not enough?

    thanks
     
  12. V8 Bob
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,966

    V8 Bob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Kilohertz,
    If you keep the Explorer M/C, I would first loose the GM combo valve and then add an adjustable prop valve along with an inline 10 lb residual. The cruise control switch at the end of the bore should also be removed, as some these were recalled because of internal leakage and possible fire. and you won't be using it anyway. Our 2000 Explorer was included in the recall.

    If you use the Ranger M/C, loose the GM combo valve, gut the screw-in prop valve and install an inline 10 lb residual and adjustable prop valve.

    If you've read any of my brake posts, you will know I always recommend drum residuals even on late model drums, and adjustable proportioning valves on non-stock custom systems in place of factory disc/drum or disc/disc combo valves.

    Your vacuum is a bit low-should be 19-20" Hg, so make sure the points are set at 27 degrees dwell and timing is at least stock 2 degrees BTDC (with the pointer and pulley dot lined up).
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
    Blues4U likes this.
  13. This may not apply here now but I thought I'd toss this out there. I use Ni-cop brake lines for the simple fact (or so I understand) that they won't rust. I have also found that Ni-cop lines are very easy to work with when it comes to bending and flaring as the material is quite pliable. That being said, a relative who is a former mechanic, told me he was able to make bubble flares using a good old double flare tool. I gave it a try and I too was able to make bubble flares with a double flare tool. No need for adapters (as long as the tubing is the same diameter obv).

    I do not know what tube material the relative has used but I have a hunch my use of Ni-cop actually helps as the tubing, once made into a copy of a bubble flare, may be more likely to "adjust itself" to the fitting due to its pliablility, once it is tightened into place.

    Look into it, there must be Youtube vids of this.

    All I can say is it works for me and has many times :)
    No more conversion fittings for me.
     
  14. That's pretty fair for a Flathead and in the middle of the road over all. There are many factory Cars that use add on Vacc pumps and you'll find them in the 15"- 22" zone. I often check what a motor makes at steady mid range R.P.M. to know what it's making on the road. You may find in slow moving traffic and on the pedal a lot things get a little less than you like. If so add a pump.
    All this Mix-n-Match brake stuff seems to be an on going issue with many people here on the H.A.M.B. Myself I tend to think a lot different than the crowd here. Being I'm way over the hill the "with it guys" tend to not agree so I no longer try to tell people exactly what they should and shouldn't use to make things Stop. We didn't use to have so many confusing pieces to pick from so we used what worked as a package. The aftermarket Sales People are making a killing on those that have to ask what to buy. Over my career I seen many a customer with all kind of issues and generally going back to matching components or very close to sent them on there way very happy.
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  15. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 1,591

    birdman1
    Member

    KISS keep it simple stupid ( sorry). Before power brakes and self adjusting, I always pumped the pedal at least once coming to a stop sign. Everyone wants modern brakes on a old car. Why???
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  16. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    Thanks boys, excellent info for me to digest.

    I kind of fibbed about engine being stock, it is internally, but I have built a GM points distributor for it with vacuum and mechanical advance. I have the timing set at 10* (according to the pulley which is off by quite a bit as we found TDC the old fashioned way as when the timing was set to the mark it ran like crap) Anyway, runs nice and smooth and with 100 PSI compression, that is what I have for vacuum. I could still change the booster if need be, but I think I will try it as is and if it needs to be changed, do it later. The engine runs but I don't have wiring, fuel tank or anything to make it driveable yet...all in good time.

    I'll reread all comments when I get home from work. Thank you all for the ideas, bubble flares etc.

    Cheers
     
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  17. V8 Bob
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,966

    V8 Bob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Your Chevy(?) distributor dwell should be 30 degrees. Can't believe the crank pulley timing bump is off at all, since they are one piece and are keyed to the crank. The engine should run fine with the timing set at the stock 2 degrees BTDC.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
  18. I can’t wrap my head around the constant use of power brakes in an old car, really never saw the need, all my cars stop great without them. Just my 2 cents
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  19. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    Something else for me to research but in 100 words or less, what determines how much vacuum a booster needs? Is it diameter, depth, there must be a spec for each booster but good luck trying to find it. I'm just trying to understand what determines if it will work or not. One reason is that while at the wreckers today, I found the cutest little vacuum booster on an 85 Ranger, same MC bolt pattern as my 2001 Explorer, but the pedal side rod sits a bit higher in the 4 bolt pattern. I'm sure I could make it work but before I start messing with all new brackets and firewall holes etc., I just want to know more about the booster. This weekend I will get the flathead running again and try the current booster, hopefully it will work and will same me a lot of rework. I could also install a vacuum reservoir....if need be.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
  20. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    Hi Bob,

    Yes dwell is spot on at 30*. I think the crank pulley has been changed as it looks newish, with fresh surface rust and I can see machining marks on it, and it's not a timing bump, it's a sharp engraved groove. Can't confirm the pulley is wrong but when my Dad came to help me work on the truck (he was a big hot rodder in the 50's) he said the engine didn't sound right so we timed it by ear and everything just fell into place, accelerated much better, no stumble, and the idle just sounded great, very smooth.

    I trust my Dad's experience over a possible wonky aftermarket crank pulley. Hope that makes sense.

    Cheers
     
  21. V8 Bob
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,966

    V8 Bob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Can you post a picture or two of the pulley and front of engine?
     
  22. alanp561
    Joined: Oct 1, 2017
    Posts: 4,611

    alanp561
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Glad you have a Dad around to help you with that. Wish I did.
     
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  23. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    Just quickly before I leave for work...I'll get better pics for you tonight.

    Yes, my Dad is the one who taught me all about cars, mechanics, auto body and paint etc. At 83 he really enjoys visiting and helping with the old Ford, brings both of us joy.

    Cheers

    crank pulley.jpg

    DSC_7286.JPG
     
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  24. V8 Bob
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,966

    V8 Bob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Your crank pulley is one I've never seen before. Normally the '48-up double wide-belt pulleys are stamped sheet metal, not a casting.
     
  25. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    I'll know for sure where TDC is when I pull the head later this year.

    Thanks again for the help.

    cheer
     
  26. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Cherish those times together. I remember those days with my dad and they are great memories. I miss him every day.
     
  27. topher5150
    Joined: Feb 10, 2017
    Posts: 3,338

    topher5150
    Member

    I'll have to double check, but I don't think my Ranger M/C came with a screw in valve I didn't think they came with rear disc brakes.
     
  28. kilohertz
    Joined: Oct 5, 2020
    Posts: 74

    kilohertz
    Member
    from Vernon, BC

    This morning I cobbled together a mass of hoses and connected the vacuum booster into the manifold vacuum t'eed with the advance canister and fired up the flathead, we have brakes! Well the master cylinder and booster works without any brake lines connected yet. I pumped the pedal repeatedly and didn't notice any change in pedal feel, like stepping on a marshmallow. This was at idle as I have no throttle linkage yet and no lines. Not sure if lines connected would make any difference. I won't know for sure until I get the truck on the road whether I will need a vacuum reservoir, easy enough to add if required. Anyway, it works, so for now I am keeping the Explorer booster.

    And Bob, I am taking your advice, in stages. I pulled the Chevy block and put on the Ranger MC. For now I am going to try the screw in proportioning valve for initial testing, if it works properly then I'm done, if not, gut it and get an aftermarket unit.

    More later.

    Cheers
     
    V8 Bob likes this.
  29. Joe Travers
    Joined: Mar 21, 2021
    Posts: 708

    Joe Travers
    Member
    from Louisiana

    ABS Power Brake, Inc. is a very good company and makes quality aftermarket valves here in the U.S. I run one and am 100% satisfied with quality and customer service. I broke the adjuster knob accidentally during a clutch adjustment and they sent me one free of charge very promptly. I highly recommend them, for what it's worth ;)

    Joe
     

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