Register now to get rid of these ads!

Projects Building My First Roadster in San Francisco

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by J.Ukrop, Sep 7, 2020.

Tags:
  1. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 3,479

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    I am always curious what people think they accomplish heating cast iron in an oven? It's thermally stable! It doesn't expand, contract, or change properties when heated, thus why it makes good engine blocks.

    Heating it is an old wives tale.
     
  2. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 3,331

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I know old wives know what an oven is.....
    Preheating all kinds of metals prior to welding helps the process, not necessarily in an oven
    It's called "furnace welding" and necessary to perform proper cast iron repairs or modifications. It has to do with the stresses created by a tremendous temperature differential on a spot repair verses taking the entire piece to welding temperature, performing the work and allowing it to cool evenly. There is lots and lots of good information about it out there on the interweb...
    I'm not going to dwell on the point other than to stress that, like in anything....proper preparation is key and nobody needs the accelerator linkage falling off in the middle of a race or a road trip... or effing up a perfectly good part in the process
    By the way.... I hang out with younger divorcees...
     
  3. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    When I was in welding class we were taught never to bother trying to weld cold cast iron. We tried welding up a broken cast iron vice cold, then the same vice preheated. The weld would never hold if the piece was cold. It would always crack and separate once the vice was tightened down on anything.
     
  4. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,911

    RodStRace
    Member

    J.Ukrop likes this.
  5. Rustygt
    Joined: May 18, 2014
    Posts: 204

    Rustygt
    Member
    from Emeryville

    I heated up my manifold with a propane torch would not get cherry red but was very hot.all I had was a buzz box with 6010 rod, wrapped copper wire around the rod and laid down a pretty sweet bead. I tried several practice runs and to this day has never cracked again. It was a Cushman scooter manifold same as Henry’s stuff. Not to offend but was a hack an old wrench from Oakland that showed me when I came to his shop on east 14th in the 80s
     
    chryslerfan55 and J.Ukrop like this.
  6. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 3,479

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    You guys are all missing the fact when welding steel to cast the game changes...
     
    J.Ukrop likes this.
  7. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 5,777

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Brazing is plenty strong for what you are doing. You don't need fancy equipment as gas torch will do just fine. If there are cracks in the manifold drill small holes at their ends to help stop the spread.
     
  8. two perfectly good mounting studs with extra threads that a bracket could be made off of.
     
  9. Any of you guys remember in the '40's and 50's every muffler shop in the country was splitting chevy 6 manifolds and brazing a flange on them for the other pipe? Seemed to work OK for the most part.
     
    loudbang, J.Ukrop, HemiDeuce and 5 others like this.
  10. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 5,190

    bchctybob
    Member

    You were trying too hard. The kid back in 1948 would have bought a muffler clamp or two (or scrounged them from the floor of the local muffler shop), installed them where the pivot needs to be and bolted a pivot bracket onto the clamps. Simple, bolt-on driveway solution.
    TIG welding is fun, huh? Glad you have a friend to help you learn. Your car is awesome.
     
  11. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,174

    Budget36
    Member

    I’d think maybe fashioning a bracket off the intake/exhaust bolts would work as well.
     
    Stogy and J.Ukrop like this.
  12. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 5,777

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    I have done several of those myself. Brazing is soldering with brass and really more like hot glue than welding since the pieces are stuck together with the brass. The pieces to be joined must be clean and the rod needs to be fluxed. The pieces must be heated until the brass flows into the void between the pieces. That is a lower temp than heating until the pieces melt together and a much easier way to bond two metals with different melting points. Done right it is very strong. I have also repaired cracked cast manifolds, blocks and heads. Like anything good results requires good prep.
    Everything I know of expands when heated. In precision machining changes in the temperature of the mill or lathe can change things and they are largely made of castings.
     
    Dannerr, chryslerfan55, OFT and 2 others like this.
  13. J.Ukrop
    Joined: Nov 10, 2008
    Posts: 2,789

    J.Ukrop
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Thank you everyone for the excellent advice on my cast-iron debacle. I really should have asked prior to jumping in, but hindsight is 20/20. I messed up. I'll be in Petaluma to work on it Tuesday, and David says we should be able to get it back in order. I'm excited to see the solution we come up with.
     
  14. J.Ukrop
    Joined: Nov 10, 2008
    Posts: 2,789

    J.Ukrop
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Thanks, Bob! I actually read this post while I was standing next to the car and realized that you're exactly night. I made things complicated while trying to make them simple. It would have been so easy to make a bracket that clamps to the manifold. Oh well, there's always next time.
     
  15. J.Ukrop
    Joined: Nov 10, 2008
    Posts: 2,789

    J.Ukrop
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Today's project was an exciting one: prepare and install my Cragar valve cover, compliments of @Six Ball. Although future plans call for a proper polish, I gave it a little bit of attention with the compounds I had on hand. Out in the sun, the fins and the CRAGAR portion have just the right amount of shine to fit with the overall ethos of the car.
    IMG_3541.jpg
    I just so happened to have a fresh gasket on hand, so I put it into service. IMG_3544.jpg
    Interestingly enough, the hole for the oil attachment bolt was slightly oversized. Upon further inspection, I discovered that it had been tapped one size up. Rather than hitting the hardware store right away, I figured I would wander to the back of the garage and see what I had in the Midland Multi-Pack. Lo and behold, I found the perfect bolt with the perfect finish in the perfect size.
    IMG_3543.jpg To make things even better, I had the right size copper washer. I modified the oil tube, applied some anti-seize and put everything back in place. I'm loving how this engine is coming together! I plan to paint the intake either VHT silver like the header or black to match the bottom of the carb. We'll see how the repair goes first.
    IMG_3554.jpg
     
  16. J.Ukrop
    Joined: Nov 10, 2008
    Posts: 2,789

    J.Ukrop
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Other odds and ends:

    I've been jumping back and forth on whether to run the Holley regulator or not. Of all the folks I've asked, it's been close to a 50/50 split. Even the tech expert at Holley said he'd just try it without it at first. I've had plenty of overflowing carbs on bikes. It's annoying. Although it's not era correct by any stretch of the imagination, I'm leaning towards using it. I want this car to be functional.

    That being said, I decided that I'm just going to run the regulator up on the firewall in true function-over-form fashion. Plus, I do have a pretty neat Made in USA Stewart-Warner pressure gauge that I can put into play. After sketching up a plan, I hit the hardware store and shopped for the correct NPT fittings. I found some. I'll be getting the rest through McMaster-Carr.

    Last but not least, I started laying out the final section of fuel line. As I'm sure you're well aware, it's much more fun working with the 1/4-inch line opposed to the 3/8ths. I will finalize the shape/routing once the regulator is in place.
    IMG_3555.jpg
    Ignore the fact that it's going through the firewall. It'll be trimmed to fit and connected to the rest of the car via a small piece of clamped rubber hose.
     
  17. J.Ukrop
    Joined: Nov 10, 2008
    Posts: 2,789

    J.Ukrop
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    So the intake was modified probably 50 or so years before I was born. At first I thought it was gas welded but, upon closer inspection, it's nicely brazed.
     
  18. Tribalmonkey
    Joined: Feb 17, 2019
    Posts: 919

    Tribalmonkey
    Member

    Joey- Sharing some of my recent experience since we are working in parallel. I’m sure you know most of this already. The Stromberg 81 box says use a regulator for max 2.5 psi. When I called Stromberg in England and talked to the tech he verified that this is the right carb for my set up he also mentioned using a regulator to get the max 2.5 psi. Therefore, I was determined to use my Holley regulator and gauge to get this right. Like you I really want to get the most of my banger. Fuel line routing for the regulator was a bit of a pain for me. I wanted to hide the pump and regulator but I didn’t come up with a smooth solution so I ended up mounting it near the bottom of my firewall. To my disappointment the little Holley 1.5-4 psi pump could barely pull/push 2 psi to the regulator. I called Holley and spoke with their tech and he said this pump needs to push the fuel and needs to be mounted as close to the fuel source as I could get it. I told him I currently had it about 30 inches from the source and he said I should move it closer. I didn’t.

    All that said - I get around 1 to 2 psi on a low tank and a good 2.5 on a full tank and the 81 seems to be happy. No stumbling or leaks. Seems like I didn’t need to have a regulator with this pump set up. I would at least use a pressure gauge so you know what is going on. Curious if your set up has different results.

    Hope this helps. TM



    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
  19. patman
    Joined: Apr 30, 2007
    Posts: 575

    patman
    Member

    And 75 (?) years ago, someone was putting the original bolt back in and then...pop...shit...shit...shit!!! Stripped it! What am I gonna do now? I gotta get this back together by this afternoon. The drama still echoes.
     
  20. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,715

    carbking
    Member

    Not sure exactly what carburetor you have; people today throw around words like "genuine" or "original" to confuse people like me.

    Stromberg USA built the EE-7/8 two-barrel (a.k.a. 81) basically from 1936~1938. Not sure if the EE-7-8 has been reproduced; if so, and that is what you have, the remainder of this post would be moot. Stromberg USA suggested to set the float level at a pressure of 3 on the 1936~1938 version.

    The fuel valve used by Stromberg USA was P-20287 which had a 0.098 inch orifice in the seat and a Monel steel valve.
    All kinds of different valves have been produced since , some of which have significantly larger orifices for use with alcohol.

    If you have the original or exact replacement P-20287 with the 0.098 orifice, it should hold 3 psi easily.

    If you have a replacement with the correct orifice and a neoprene-tipped valve, it should hold a bit more, possibly 3.5 psi.

    If you have one of the flat tipped valves made by Parker Brothers, they would easily hold 3.5 psi; I have never tested the Daytona version of this valve.

    If you have one of the two-ball abortions, I would suggest replacing it.

    Jon.
     
  21. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 5,777

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    That's why you have it! I knew it was screwed up and I'd never be able to fix it so I palmed if off on an unsuspecting kid. :rolleyes: Further proof that it is where it should be, you had the bolt and washer. :) Good job, it really looks "right" on there just another layer of cool to your build! :cool:

    I'm sure you and di Falco will find a solution to the intake boss issue. A kid in the '50s also might have replaced one or two of the manifold studs with one of these to make a place to mount the linkage or a bracket fo it. Or even a tapped hole or two in the bottom of the carb base? The main thing is that you are doing stuff!

    image.jpeg
     
  22. sloppy jalopies
    Joined: Jun 29, 2015
    Posts: 5,256

    sloppy jalopies
    Member

    love the little details, they make it your car, keep 'em coming...
    lots of roadster guys on this thread,
    buddy just bought a tudor, nice, pix when he can figure his camera out.... wants to part with his '30 rdstr for seventy five hunded... posted here because this is where the builders are tuned into...
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021
    chryslerfan55 and J.Ukrop like this.
  23. J.Ukrop
    Joined: Nov 10, 2008
    Posts: 2,789

    J.Ukrop
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Great information. Thank you so much for the help. I'll let you know how it all pans out in the coming weeks!

    Hi Jon, thank you for the info. I am running one of the new 81's from Stromberg. I got it for a good deal through work. They said that it should be correct for this application. Time will tell.

    Thank you! It was definitely a meant-to-be scenario. I was feeling pretty down about messing up the intake, but I did have to remind myself that I was at least out here trying to make it happen. That's what hot rodding is all about!

    Thank you! It's coming along slowly but surely. Only 75 Hamiltons? So $750? I know @Tribalmonkey was looking for a roadster body and he may be interested.
     
  24. J.Ukrop
    Joined: Nov 10, 2008
    Posts: 2,789

    J.Ukrop
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Yesterday was a great day at David di Falco's shop. Whenever I pull up and see my favorite roadster parked out front, I can't help but smile.
    IMG_3574.jpg
    As I mentioned before, our goal was to repair the intake manifold. David assessed the damage and determined that it was indeed salvageable. He ground down some of the rougher parts of the welds, cleaned the surface and laid down a fillet braze. He showed me how the flux reacts to different temperatures, and how he was able to get the bronze to flow.
    IMG_3562.jpg
    Once the brazing was finished, David cleaned everything up. We checked for air leaks and determined that this manifold is ready for use again. Next up, a thorough cleaning and then paint!
    IMG_3576.jpg

    IMG_3577.jpg
     
  25. J.Ukrop
    Joined: Nov 10, 2008
    Posts: 2,789

    J.Ukrop
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    While working on the repair, David and I wondered about the person who made this all those years ago. The craftsmanship is very nice, and we determined that this wasn't their first time brazing. As David looked into the plug on the bottom, he made a neat discovery. "That's a valve!" he said. Lo and behold, the previous owner had cut the stem and brazed a valve in the place of the stock updraft intake tube. Talk about hot rod ingenuity! IMG_3571.jpg
    Back when I was prepping the intake for welding, I noticed that there were traces of red and yellow paint. David suggested that it was most likely School Bus Yellow. "Maybe the janitors had extra that they were giving away," he said. School Bus Yellow? Reminds me of another Model A that just so happened to be parked a dozen feet away. IMG_3572.jpg
    Like any hot rod these days, my roadster is a combination of old and new. It's pieces like these that I'm most excited about. Can you imagine the car this intake came off of? It must have really been something cool.
     
  26. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 17,097

    Tim
    Member
    from KCMO

    Getting closer man! Can’t wait to hear that cackle and burp threw the headers
     
    J.Ukrop and Stogy like this.
  27. J.Ukrop
    Joined: Nov 10, 2008
    Posts: 2,789

    J.Ukrop
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    The best part of wrenching on this car in Petaluma is hanging out with David. He and I had a great time catching up and sharing stories of projects past and present. Recently he brought a customer's 1947 Ford Tudor back to life. The owner has had it since 1971, and David worked to get it roadworthy once again. It was fun asking a million questions about it and climbing underneath to get a great view of the rebuilt brakes.
    IMG_3565.jpg
    In all my years I've been at the shop, I've never noticed this amazing old flyer. The story goes that it came from a customer of his who found it in their garage, and he stapled it to the wall just to ruffle some feathers. You know me, I love San Francisco hot rod history. I'll have to retrace their route once my car is up to snuff. IMG_3566.jpg
    If I'm not mistaken, the Grancor head came off of David's roadster.
    DDH2.jpg
    Yesterday, I was also able to pick up the repaired windshield frame. Last night, I cut a template for the glass. I hope to get it cut this week. Any tips?
    IMG_3585.jpg
    (I know I'm missing a stud!)
     
  28. Take the frame to the glass shop and have him install the glass. You can take along the glass bedding strip that you want to use, or take pot luck from what the shop has on hand.
     
    jim snow, J.Ukrop, OFT and 2 others like this.
  29. Weedburner 40
    Joined: Jan 26, 2006
    Posts: 954

    Weedburner 40
    Member

    Like Phil said, have the glass shop install the glass into the frame.
     
    winduptoy, J.Ukrop and pprather like this.
  30. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 5,777

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    "Can you imagine the car this intake came off of? It must have really been something cool."
    And you and David helped it continue it's way through hot rod history and not wind up in some old fart's collection. (the side cover too) I wonder if they have met before?

    Imagine the entry fee being $1.00 and covering a Coke, a hot dog, and maybe a trophy? here do you think they ended up? Life was good! It still beats the other options:rolleyes:
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.