Anyone running E85 in their hot rod or race motor???

My big block for my model A ended up around 12:1... I dont really want to have to run race gas...or overheat the hell out of my motor (running a pretty small custom 4 core aluminum rad..)

So i'm toying with the idea of running the motor on Ethanol, and i'd really like to run it on E85 as its half ass available at the pump...

Anyone have any experience in converting a carburated motor over to run on E85????

Any info.....hell even just opinions would be appreciated...

 

If the fuel system is all new parts, you should have no issues.

Bump up the jet sizes by 3-4 and it'll get lit. Re-set the timing, but it should be real close to where gasoline likes it.

You shouldn't have to make any other changes. Experiment with timing and maybe even plug heat ranges for optimum performance. You won't get great mileage, but who cares? You'll have a ball with this.

Do a search on Wyoming Ethanol Racing and call them with any tuning questions. They've been drag racing with E85 for years.

Good Luck and tell us how it goes.

At least tell me.

Have fun!

~Scotch~

 

hmm.....i really hope your right...from all the research i've done so far says that E85 will basically eat my entire fuel system from the inside out...plus cause all sorts of havoc on my engine's oiling system....

I dunno if i really feel like risking my $7000 motor on E85 just yet....

 

I'm wondering the same thing myself...I've got a 2.0 liter Pinto Ford OHC engine in my 28 A station wagon....1971 engine, 100 hp...I'm thinking that the engine will work with E85 with perhaps some carb parts replaced, as it's a Holly carb, parts should be available that aren't natural rubber, which alcohol likes to eat up.....I also think that the mileage might go down somewhat. I sealed the tank with an alcohol compatible sealer I got from Snyder's in Oh years ago.

Where do you get E85 in Reed City MI?...I live in Allegan county....car is now on Beaver Island where regular is 3.75 per gallon...ouch!

Remember, Henry Ford said that his Model T's would work the best with alcohol fuels..he even made it during Prohibition, much to the consternation of the IRS who controlled alcohol then...he hated with a vengence John D. Rockefeller who had the oil production tied up...

 

Getting E85 will be about as convenient here as its gonna be buying race gas for it anyways.....
Hopefully someday it will be convenient...whether i run the hot rod on it or now........

Did i run into you at the wheatland this spring by chance????

 

I built my motor to handle E85 ,mostly a seal gasket deal,new Holleys are E85 acceptable according my Tech call, I figure we're all gonna be using it soon , Here E85 COSTS MORE to BUY,go figure in a CORN state

 

The demand for it is pushing prices up... though it can be made out of other crops besides corn it is being pushed to use corn... You can find out where your closest pump is at http://www.e85fuel.com/database/search.php

 

Jeez Mike, Down here it runs .30 -.50 a gallon cheaper. I may have to look into making mine an E85 rod. I hate financing all those jihadists.

 

Here's an ethanol compatability chart my girlfriend did for my schools Formula SAE team. we ran a motorcycle engine with 11.5:1 static compression, then turbocharged it up to 10 psig and had no detonation problems... until we put the trigger wheel on wrong and were running 100 degrees of advance by accident.

And my girfriend says she got all of this information online and makes no gaurantees to its accuracy

Type of Material Compatible
Aluminum
Most Rubber*
Teflon √
Stainless Steel √
Natural Rubber √
Latex √
Brass
Cast Iron √
Tin √
Copper
Steel
Nickel √
Glass √
Fiberglass** √
Most Plastics*** √
Flex Pipe √
Anodized Aluminum Hardcoat √
Anodized Aluminum √
Zinc
Cork
Lead
Silicone √
Butyl √
Nitrile Latex √
Neoprene √
Titanium √
Carbon Steel √
Galvanized Steel √
PVC √



Fuel filters may clog because ethanol will break apart sediment in the tank. It also will pick up more water which stays suspended in the alcohol. There are fewer problems with higher concentrations of ethanol.

*O-rings and seals in some standard dispensers are affected by E85. Equipment must be specialized. Nitrile has been successfully used.

**Problems exist with single-walled fiberglass tanks. Double-walled tanks and piping are completely compatible.​

***See next page
Plastic Durability​

​

Type of Plastic​

Extent of Durability​

Conventional Polyethylene​

Good​

High-Density Polythylene​

Excellent​

Teflon​

Excellent​

Tefzel​

Excellent​

Polypropylene​

Good​

Polymethylpentene​

Good​

Polycarbonate​

Good​

Polyvinyl Chloride​

Good​

Excellent: Will tolerate years of exposure
Good: No damage after 30 days, should tolerate years of exposure

 

ah crap... charts don't copy in well

the check mark indicates compatability in the first section, if theres no check mark its not compatable, and in the second section the bold part is the type of plastic and the extent of durability is right under it

 

yah, they tell us here its because there are no refinerey's locally, sounds like more gas company BS to me ,any excuse to jack prices, must be that last hurricane Mn had , no offense meant to + definately NOT meaning to belittle the suffering our Southern members went through.

 

I see bare aluminum isnt compatible per you list.....anybody know whats gonna happen to my carb...intake..and pistons when exposed to E85???

 

As far as I know, they're fine. Our E85 engine had bare aluminum intake, head and pistons and had no problem. I think that the rate of errosion is very slow, and only becomes an issue with fuel sitting in a bare aluminum tank or lines 24/7.

Also, we had JB Weld in our fuel tank... its not compatable.

 

Had some E85 education recently. I must admit I paid little attention as we have none here in NJ. I did get that it absorbs water which means it will rust your plain steel lines from the inside out. you must use stainless for everything. I'm not sure about the aluminum part. GM is still using alum. engine parts so the "slow erosion" statement is probable. And the rubber is also an issue. Nitrile, maybe or epdm but not the standard natural rubber line. other than all that stuff you should be ok? It is just like ethanol, only just 85%. which probably means that it is NOTHING like ethanol. It sounds like a lot of work to try to save a few bucks at the pump. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the MPG is much less than gas!!!! The theory is that when it gains popularity the cost per gallon will decrease and it will be a wash. It is just to reduce our dependancy on foriegn oil, not to save us $. How's it sound now?

 

Since it's over 100 octane and is made on this continent, I'm still a fan...


~Scotch~

 

I knew a guy using it in his paper delivery car. He told me that if it is .30 less a gallon the mileage loss is a wash.

 

I'm still really interested in running it....but not to save 30 cents a gallon....

Anything thats around 105 octane and will make my big block run nice and cool....and is available at a pump!!!! i'll just about bend over backwards to run this shit!!!!

 

Sounds like you need some better education. Are you getting your gas out of a local pump? Most likely you're already pumping gas with up to 10% Ethanol into your already. Maybe you should lookin to that. You don't need stainless everything. If it's an old car you will need to replace any old rubber lines, the new rubber lines that are sold at most auto parts stores will be fine. If you have an old mechanical fuel pump you may have to replace it or at least rebuild it with new parts that are more alcohol resistant, as a matter of fact they've been putting Ethanol in your gas for tha past 10-15 years.... The forgot to mention that the MPG is much less than gas!!!! is my favorite. Yeah if the car isn't set up for E85, once you have the higher compression that it wants and the engine tuned for it the difference gets down to about 12% or so. The biggest reason that the flex fuel cars sometimes see a bigger difference is because they are an engine set up for gas that can run E85 and not optimized for it, i.e. low compression.

The other thing that shows you either didn't pay attention is the It is just like ethanol, only just 85%. which probably means that it is NOTHING quote... It's just like Ethanol because it is Ethanol, so it's exactly like it. The reason it's only 85% Ethanol is due to cold starting problems with 100% Ethanol and the water retention. Get out there and dig into the issue if you want to debate it intelligently but don't bring in second hand thoughts that even you admit you didn't pay attention to.. Thanks for playing...

 

Hey zman, thanks for the info, and I have a question that you might be able to answer. Are there any changes that need to be made to the valve train, or adjusted when running this fuel in what would be (as the subject title suggested) a "race" type motor. Kinda like when fuel lost its lead, and the early valve train cars would "ping", and lose power. I am really just wondering what needs to be different in a build up, when considering this fuel as a source of power. Any help would, well, help...

 

Interesting discussion. I've been looking for some first-person testimony from someone who's using this stuff in an engine that's built around it. That's the important thing. An engine that's built to run Alky can scream but just throwing new jets in an existing carb is a long way from optimizing for the fuel. Jets, timing, compression, maybe even the camshaft should be set up to take advantage of the cooler burn and increased octane. Basically this stuff is just alcohol with enough gasoline thrown in for cold starts, sounds like race fuel to me!

 

So, if I understand this:

Pros:
1. Cleaner emissions.
2. US grown.
3. Can be used in Very High Compression engines.
4. Nice exhaust smell

Cons:
1. Potential starting problem in extremely cold weather (OK you guys in the great frozen north let us know )
2. Susceptible to water solubility (we in the humid, wet tropics will watch this one)
3. From several studies, a 20-40% loss in fuel economy using E85? That would make E85 more expensive than gasoline since you'll be using more gallons over time.

So, I understand the issues with the environment, foreign oil dependency, high performance.....but are people really going to pay more for fuel if gasoline is reallly cheaper? I think not. Just like they will shop at the Great WalMart of China to save a buck at the expense of US manufacturing. Economics rules......

 

i found this at http://e85forum.com/about44.html
Chris --- sorry for the long delayed response !

Here is my 2c on this topic.

Converting engines to E85 raises some interesting questions. You actually have two different issues here. One is for a basic conversion by someone who only wants to make a conversion with largely existing equipment ( ie minimum investment in order to cut fuel costs, to get some of the benefits of a superior fuel or as a political/social statement regarding foreign oil independence or renewable fuel concerns) For those folks the conversion is really pretty simple.

If you are on the other hand looking at an "optimized conversion" where you are custom building a setup to get the most out of E85 --- than that is a whole different ball of worms.

For the "basic conversion" You only have a couple of issues to worry about.
1. Ignition timing changes are not necessary E85 and gasoline use almost identical ignition advance at both max power and max effeciency.
2. Fuel flow increase to adapt to the different fuel. In this case your most important concern is to increase fuel flow by about 27% give or take a bit so the engine is working with an ideal mixture.
3. Fuel system component compatibility ( modern rubber fuel lines are ethanol safe) Some fuel pumps, and gasket materials may have issues.

On modern OBDII electronic engine management systems, almost no changes of any kind are needed at fuel mixtures of 33% and below of E85. The modern ECU's have enough fuel trim authority to adapt to these mixtures. If the user is willing to live with some CEL's and a slight lean out under max power, you can push that up near 50% mixtures with no changes at all. For mixtures between 50% E85 and 100% E85 you need to increase the fuel system flow capacity by using larger injectors, increased fuel pressure etc.

On the EFI systems, if there is a user tuneable or (vendor tunable) ecu reflash or adjustable piggy back tuning solution, you can optimize the fuel mixture by using commonly understood tuning modifications.

Generally you richen the mixture about 27% across the board. At max power if performance is the goal you will want to run it even a bit richer as Ethanol based fuels continue to make more power at up to 25% rich of stoich mixture where gasoline reaches max power at about 15% rich of stoich. EDIT I have one source that says you can go up to 40% rich of stoich on E85 and still get increased torque. On carburator systems you may need to enlarge fuel inlet sizes and ensure the needle and seat material is compatable with ethanol fuels.

For max fuel economy the ethanol based fuels produce more torque at lower throttle openings and their higher fuel octane and cool burning characteristics will allow you to lean out the light throttle low load cruise portions of the fuel map father than you would dare on gasoline.

On an optomized carburator system, basically all the above applies but it is a bit more complicated to get there. For an average driver, only interested in getting the car to run well on the new fuel. Richen the primary jets about 27%, and the secondary jets a bit more. You will probably want to increase the accelerator pump shot and may need to modify the idle mixture sytem slightly to get good drivability. You may need more carburator heat, and or more agressive choke settings in cold weather.

Any tuner that is good with carburators should be able to dial in a setup with a bit of experimentation. There are a handful of shops that build custom carburators for racers that run methanol fuels and an E85 conversion carburator would be a pretty simple adaptation of their methanol carb design I would think. Call around and see who builds "alcohol carburators" for the racers and they should be able to get up to speed pretty quickly.

Once you get to trying to optimize the engine for a high ethanol fuel like E85, you would be making pretty much the same modification the methanol fuel class racers do to their engines with the exception that your fuel flow rates would be a bit lower. Due to the higher octane you would run a higher compression ratio ( up to 13:1 or so on NA engines).

Wet flow in the intake manifold of carburated systems is more critical due to the higher volume of fuel dropplets and strong charge air cooling of the alcohol fuels. Alcohol fueled engine tend to like heads and manifolds that have higher air flow capacity by about 10% ( actually ports shaped for slower mixture velocities but higher flow, bigger intake valves, more cam etc. ). The engine can make use of the higher volumetric effeciency where on gasoline it would have gone over the edge into detonation with the higher flow intake system. The increased torque and higher compression ratios, with the alcohol fuels largely gets rid of low speed drivability issues that the larger intake flow and more agressive cams would create on a gasoline engine. The Alcohol fueled engine may also prefer a larger header tube size for performance applications (ethanol produces more exhaust gas volume than gasoline does).

Fuel drop out is more of a concern for max power engines running alcohol fuels, as is keeping the mixture in suspension. Engines can run with slightly warmer thermostats to aid cold weather drivablility, and keep oil temp up high enough to keep from building up fuel in the oil due to the very rich mixtures racers run. Modern synthetic oils appear to work just fine with E85.

A smaller cooling system may be useable on the E85 setup than you could get away with on gasoline. In some cases you may want to intentionally lean the fuel mixture out a bit to get some heat in the engine. In carburated engines they my like more intake manifold heat in cold driving conditions.

Due to the lower exhaust gas temp, catalytic converters light off slower (or fail to light off) with alcohol fuels, so more attention should be made to keep heat in the exhaust system prior to the Cat.

Older vehicles (pre-1980's) may have some fuel system compatability issues with carburator floats, fuel hoses and seals. Cork based carburator gaskets have been known to cause problems on some cars as have Plastic foam carburator floats. Remove any magnesium or zinc in the fuel system, keep an eye on aluminum if it is constantly wetted by fuel and open to the air so it can absorb moisture ( ie carburator float bowls). Anodized aluminum is safe as is stainless steel, mild steel, nickle plated brass and bronze fuel fittings. Mixing many dissimilar metals in the same fuel system should be avoided. ( things like copper tubing, aluminum etc may set up electrolytic corrosion if in the same system. Much like underwater corrosion control in boats, highly reactive metals like Zinc and magnesium are to be avoided)

Some Plastic fuel tanks may have issues with E85, Older fuel tanks coated with "tern" metal ( a lead based coating) may slowly have the internal metal coating stripped off due to this sort of electorlytic action.


Quote:What can a person do to convince a company like Holly or Edelbrock to make a 50-state legal conversion kit like they do for aftermarket performace products?

1). Get the EPA to quit publishing regs that prohibit changes out right, and set performance based standards.

2.) Create enough economic demand that it is profitable for them to jump through all the necessary hoops.

Hope that helps.

Larry

 

I haven't run a optimized for E85 engine, pretty much just rejet and go stuff so far, but now that we have our first real E85 pump close enough I'll be running a fresh Buick 425 I have on it. I think the compression ratio is probably 10.5-11:1 with the pop tops and milled heads. I'll definately be keeping an eye on the oil to see if anything gets wonky with it. I'll be running LE http://www.le-inc.com/ oil in her. I'm also looking into a cam more taylored to E85, but will run the Carmen Faso grind I have for now. The big dilemna is single or dual carbs.....

Nice info, and lets not forget butanol as well... http://www.butanol.com/
Organic fuels are our best bet in my opinion... the fact that we can make fuel from just about any organic matter that will run our Hot Rods and Kustoms is very cool....

 

And just in case anyone's interested I'm a distributor for http://www.flextuneusa.com/ and will offer a discount to HAMB'ers who are interested in E85 for their daily drivers.... the cars it's available for.. http://rod-o-rama.com/E85Conversions.html

 

E85 in Warren MI is 2.88. Gas was 2.93 around the corner.

I got gas.

 

Really? Up here (at least in Forest Lake) it's about $.30 cheaper per gallon...

I read a bit about using e85 in performance engines in a recent hot rod or car craft. They said that it has more energy for a given amount that 108 octane race fuel... and thus, you could run higher compression with it, etc. I wonder if that's why people get worse fuel mileage with it... they are not using it to it's full potential, with low compression engines?

Ben

 

Yeah, for the time being fuel cost is a real hit or miss thing around here. Two things going on here: upward pressure on oil prices and lack of alcohol production capacity. Production of alcohol WILL improve because they're building and expanding Ethanol plants all over farm country. Rapid and unforeseen phase out of other "oxygenating" additives for gasoline have made the shortage more serious in the short term as well. Upward pressure on oil prices? I'm not psychic but does anyone see oil prices going down? As spot prices for oil and Ethanol go up and down we've seen short periods here in Iowa where the price of 10% Ethanol had actually been HIGHER than 87 Octane Unleaded this Summer, but over time I'll bet the cost of Ethanol vs Gasoline will only improve.

 

Whata doin on beaver island? I got relatives there i think. Um Maudre Dunno if the spelling is right . they are fishermen there ..earl and peewee? They belong to some indian tribe we always called it the wannabees LOL.
Dave

 

i can't read long posts like this..but..if it helps out a farmer..then I am all for it..

tok

 

Commenting on a couple of the above posts it's doubtful that E85 produces lower emissions in modern highly computerized engines. For the last few years many new powerplants have emissions that are astonishingly low-- zero for all practical purposes. Hard to see how ethanol can improve on that. Also someone made the comment that one of the mags stated that
E-85 has more energy than 108 octane racing fuel. This is way not true. Gallon for gallon ethanol has substantially less energy than gasoline. What is true is that engines can make more power running on ethanol 'cuz of the higher octane and better heat transfer but only if you can get enough into the cylinder to make up for the BTU shortage. Makes it a natural for blown motors obviously but NA motors like it as well if the setup is tailored to the need as others above have noted.

This ignores mileage of course, who cares how much juice a track car uses, but in terms of street car mileage you'll always be operating at a disadvantage with ethanol even with engines optimized for its use.

The emissions situation may be different with typical carbureted street motors but since they're so bad, crud wise not fun wise, compared to the latest engines it's hard to see why it would matter much.