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Projects Jumping in the deep end

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by trevorsworth, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. SilverJimmy
    Joined: Dec 2, 2008
    Posts: 524

    SilverJimmy
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    Somebody on the Homemade tools and Tips thread suggested using an inflatable kiddie pool under a car to catch coolant and other leaks. Holds lots of gallons of fluid and is cheap and molds easily around tires and other things....
     
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  2. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    That’s perfect. I’m gonna pick one up this evening.

    Plus if the rad leaks I can go for a dip...
     
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  3. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    Christmas swung by again today.

    859E494A-8D91-489E-B97B-92D2D478B8B3.jpeg 95EDEA65-BCC9-4490-B7CE-1CF2D67CBADB.jpeg

    I scored two sets of A brake rods from fellow HAMBer @lake_harley. One set has some interesting “custom” work in the form of a sliding linkage, which we think is set up to operate the rear service brakes with the emergency brake handle. Any insight as to why this may have been done?
     
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  4. modelacrazy
    Joined: Feb 24, 2011
    Posts: 106

    modelacrazy
    Member

    My guess is the car those rods came off of had sketchy brakes, the previous owner was trying to get all the braking power it could muster. B+ for ingenuity but not what Henry had designed
     
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  5. modelacrazy
    Joined: Feb 24, 2011
    Posts: 106

    modelacrazy
    Member

    Also you will find mechanical brakes really need to be within service limits and adjusted correctly to function. That includes straight brake rods and no slop in the system. The next hurdle with them is the factory drums which are stamped steel. Unless it’s NOS drums they’ve been turned a time or two in ninety years and even then they can grow when they get hot causing fade. All that said they are adequate just don’t drive like you have power discs on all four corners
     
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  6. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    I haven't yet inspected the brakes on my coupe beyond confirming that they are present and do work on all four corners. They are definitely out of adjustment as they drag on a couple wheels, but I'm glad for it because if they were perfect when I got the car I'd never have any reason to learn about them. I'll get around to fitting up the non-sketchy rods on a slightly warmer day- it's been below freezing lately and I'm just not going to lay on my back on the concrete floor right now.

    In the meantime, the next time I have some real time off I'm going to pull that carb off and apart. After receiving another $800 electric bill today I am definitely not buying that rebuild kit, but I will at least tear it down and see if maybe I can limp it along with just a good cleaning. Another AC guy came by and identified the wiring issue that was responsible for the insane spike in consumption so hopefully that will finally be the last of that. If the carb works out I have almost everything, parts wise, to at least drive the car around the block a few times.
     
  7. modelacrazy
    Joined: Feb 24, 2011
    Posts: 106

    modelacrazy
    Member

    I feel you on the cold weather killing the hot rod progress.
     
  8. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    Went ahead and pulled the carb off before it got below freezing in the garage again. Think I'll pop it apart this evening and see what I can see. If it's just varnished to death, what can I soak it in?
     
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  9. rusty valley
    Joined: Oct 25, 2014
    Posts: 3,883

    rusty valley
    Member

    800 dollar elec bill ??? thats from heat? shoot, i think i'd start the couch on fire and shut the heat off. elec bill here is about 70 to 100. one 500 gal tank of LP for the year, usually only use about half, but i do spend a couple weeks a year cutting fire wood to heat two buildings. sorry for the drift, i know we are not here for home economics class
     
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  10. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    It's normally around $120. This month was $813 and last month was something like $950. Turns out they wired it wrong and every part of the system was running 24/7 fighting itself. I have only ever had heat pumps, the new system is not a heat pump, and I was not aware that the outside unit was not supposed to be running when the system was in heating mode. I'm hoping they reimburse me but if they don't I guess I don't really have any recourse.
     
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  11. RMONTY
    Joined: Jan 7, 2016
    Posts: 2,540

    RMONTY
    Member

    I'd be worried about damage to the compressor, but what do I know. I've only been a freon jockey since 1978. I'd be making a phone call to the owner of the company with promises of stellar social media coverage of the fantastic installation of the new equipment. Sorry for the OT post but that shit work pisses me off. There is no reasonable explanation for such lack of quality work!
     
  12. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    I am trying to play it cool right now, honey vs vinegar etc. The co-owner of the company was the one who came out and diagnosed it and he didn't seem real happy with his guys. There is a lot of work that has to be done over but he was able to patch it for now and they are supposed to be coming back soon. He told me he was going to get it all sorted out, not sure if that includes the enormous electric bill they ran up or not. I figure I'll wait for them to actually finish the work (or never come back, whichever) before I risk pissing them off. But yes, I'm not really happy.
     
  13. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    It's looking like it's not going to be pleasant hot rodding weather any time soon so I think I am going to suck it up and put the brake rods on when I am off on Saturday, during which it will be a balmy 16 degrees. If I go ahead and get that out of the way and I can get it to sip gas from the carb, I can spend the next warm day bombing around my neighborhood instead of wrenching.

    Should I just throw the rods on as they are and adjust from there or should I put the clevises all at some "default" adjustment before installing? I understand that adjusting the brake rods just means taking the slack out but I'm not sure what best practice is for starting from scratch.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  14. rusty valley
    Joined: Oct 25, 2014
    Posts: 3,883

    rusty valley
    Member

    you need to have all 4 brake return springs on hand, as i think the rod goes thru them if i remember correctly. i think in the catalogues they give the rod length, so you could figure out what the deal is with the modified ones, and weld them up to the correct length
     
  15. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    I think the other set is good to go. The modified ones were more or less a freebie.

    Can you tell me more about the four return springs? On the diagrams I have I don't see any springs in the part of the system I'm working on. Also, no springs are mentioned in the brake parts lists other than the retracting springs. The only springs I know of are inside the drum. I thought it was strange that there were seemingly no helper springs on the rods or pedal. I was under the impression that a pedal return spring was an aftermarket piece and neither necessary nor recommended. Of course my car came with none of this and I have not examined the brakes on any living As in detail, so all I have is the diagrams in these restorer manuals to work off of.

    Here is what I’m looking at. In comparing these to my car, it seems that the rods themselves are all I am missing. This chassis was built up from parts of several cars so either it never had rods as it sits or they were lost in between owners after someone removed them while tinkering.

    A075E569-A76E-42D2-A38B-027BEB2925B6.jpeg
    6FA6E326-D783-49DE-A3DC-35E5C0731034.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  16. rusty valley
    Joined: Oct 25, 2014
    Posts: 3,883

    rusty valley
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    on each rod there is a bump about in the middle. that bump hits a spring. 2 types, a flat piece of spring steel, and one that looks more like a spring bent weird. 28-29 vs 30 31, sorry cant remember which is which, but i do prefer the one that looks like a spring, the flat ones seem to crack. there is a small angle bracket that is riveted on the frame that the spring bolts to. originally no spring on the pedal as you would think, however they do sell an aftermarket one for folks that have the brake light sticking on
     
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  17. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    Ah- I do have several flat springs on the rods which were described as anti-rattle springs. I didn't realize those were part of the system beyond keeping the rods from, well, rattling. Now it makes sense. Thanks!

    I am surprised that none of the diagrams and seemingly none of the text make mention of these springs, they are obviously important. A lot of resources for these things make the assumption that you have some experience already and that makes things kind of tricky for me.

    A set of new flat springs is not expensive ($11 on Mike's). I think one of mine is toast. I found a picture of the wire spring ones you described but I'm not seeing any for sale, repro or original.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  18. modelacrazy
    Joined: Feb 24, 2011
    Posts: 106

    modelacrazy
    Member

    Also there is an adjustment procedure once you get the rods on, it involves a board with notches in it that wedges between the seat riser and the brake pedal, notches against the pedal. For now you could adjust by feel to putt around the neighborhood. Maybe Jack the rear wheels up and check that the E brake works for extra insurance
     
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  19. RMONTY
    Joined: Jan 7, 2016
    Posts: 2,540

    RMONTY
    Member

    If it were me, and given that these are mechanical brakes, I would "spring" for all new springs.....sorry, I couldn't help myself on that one. BLAME IT ON THE ICE AGE IN NORTH TEXAS!!
     
  20. treb11
    Joined: Jan 21, 2006
    Posts: 3,948

    treb11
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    See J. Ukrop (sp) thread building a model A in San Francisco. He makes some good references to manual brakes.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  21. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    I think that’s wise. I’ll also be getting fresh cotter pins!

    I have been following Joey’s build religiously and I will soon be pestering him for advice I’m sure. The floating brake conversion he did will probably be one of the first things I do to the car once it’s drivable.
     
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  22. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    All my gusto for installing the brake rods today evaporated when I walked into the garage. There is no way my little heater is going to make that bearable, so I brought the carburetor in and I'll tinker with that instead. Here’s what I see.

    2C032817-C720-4840-99CD-E662C6EB2DBA.jpeg

    This big copper pontoon operates a ball valve that shuts off fuel flow when the fuel level in this chamber reaches a certain point.

    4D27F78C-019B-462E-B214-DBA36FCCB8F7.jpeg

    Everything in this chamber is covered in an unattractive crystalline mineral deposit. But there seems to be no blockage in this passage, so it must be somewhere down the road.

    68397D82-5183-4448-B3E8-1C399A437A3B.jpeg
    461255F4-3BE3-4775-B74E-F2A866318D8B.jpeg

    The rest of it is pretty clean and I was able to save the old gasket. Not sure if it will seal when reused but I’ll try it.

    33B371DE-3B4E-44D3-9140-BC0ADE8F2F48.jpeg

    There’s the problem! The jet was also completely plugged. The passage is pretty bad so I am soaking it right now. A little bendy brush would be nice here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2021
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  23. It looks to me like you're going to wind up with more $$ in those mechanical brakes than you would have with a hydraulic conversion, and STILL have a 100 year old system! Ford (and the entire industry) changed to hydraulics for a reason. Make sure there is NO wear/slop in ANY of the clevis pins, clevises, any wear point. Check out the steel drums closely as well....they were known to warp, not to mention fade badly.
    Most people "in the know" about Model A's wouldn't spend too much time, $$ or effort on a Tillotson carb. They had a tendency to leak, warp, and be hard to keep tuned. There's a reason so many of them are gathering dust and show up at swap meets.
    Might be just my opinion, but I learned both of these things years ago, the hard way. YMMV (but I doubt it)
     
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  24. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,911

    RodStRace
    Member

    Before you go chugging around the neighborhood, get some brakes, of course.
    However, I'd also lube the chassis real good to keep from hurting stuff, and definitely check the lube in the rear axle. If there is water in there too, you are better off changing it before it gets stirred up.
    It is a bunch of extra work, but better to get familiar with all the stuff and have an idea of condition before you ask it to do it's job with who knows what between the surfaces.
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    Here's my rationale: I want this to be a rolling project, so right now I'm taking the shortest route to making the car drive and stop, that way it doesn't sit for too long at any given time. That will help me stay focused on it.

    My budget is pretty tight, so I will be attacking the project in bite sized, tightly focused pieces. Right now, the car cannot stop at all, because even though it has working brakes on all 4 corners, they aren't connected to the pedal. The rods will complete the system and make the car able to stop. The floating brake upgrade isn't expensive and will make them that much better. If I get the carburetor working, the car will now run and stop on its own. Then my next priority will be putting a floor and a better seating solution in the car, after which I will be able to drive it on the street around town when the weather is nice.

    In the meantime I can snap up pieces needed for the hydraulic brake conversion and other major steps when it's convenient. Driving the car will also let me feel out what exactly I want to change - do I want to bother hopping up the banger or will I want to skip straight to putting a V8 in it (which will also necessitate the hydraulic brake conversion as well as some other expensive stuff)? I have no idea yet but I will once I've driven the car for a while.

    A proper hydraulic brake conversion will add up to 1-2 thousand dollars. That's a lot of money I would rather be spending on completing the bodywork right now. Sure, I can save money by buying and rehabbing used parts here and there but then that will add up to months of waiting for the right parts and pieces to float by at the right prices and meanwhile my car will sit and glare at me every time I sneak into the garage for some unrelated purpose when it could instead be hurtling cantankerously down back roads and terrorizing stray neighborhood children.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2021
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  26. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    I cleaned out the carb, hooked up the gas, spun her over and got one good pop out of it, then smelled burning electronics, looked down and my battery charger was pouring smoke. Because why not??? :rolleyes:

    So I think we're getting gas now but I can't get it to spin long enough to catch. That charger was less than a year old, they're gonna be replacing it.
     
  27. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,407

    alchemy
    Member

    A’s would be wired as positive ground. Did you hook up the charger like that?
     
  28. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

    trevorsworth
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    This car has no wiring right now, other than the ghetto ignition circuit we rigged up, which is negative ground I believe. (Electricity still kind of eludes me.)

    The charger shut itself off automatically when hooked up incorrectly. It has been working fine to keep the battery topped up but it gave up while cranking.
     
  29. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,911

    RodStRace
    Member

    Yep, everything has been sitting and sticking (rusting) together for quite some time. A can of penetrating oil applied to stuff will help it loosen up. Springs, bushings, hinges, etc. Grease all the parts that need it to help protect and unstick them.
    When the bodywork is started, having lube on fasteners that hold stuff together will be better than trying to remove rusted stuff. Door hinges, windshield hinges, garnish molding screws, latches, anything that will be removed and installed or moves.
    Anyone who has removed broken screws will agree that it's easier to squirt them 2-3 times for a couple weeks than drilling, tapping and finding replacements!
     
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  30. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 1,444

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    Right now, I really shouldn't be spending money, but I literally could not sleep knowing I was that close. It was killing me, so I bought a new battery charger and dove back in today.

    After cleaning out the carb I still couldn't get it to run. I knew I had to be missing something. I could crank and crank and crank and it wouldn't fire. It'd go on ether, but it never seemed to pick up fuel. The secret ingredient was choke - it was impossible to work all the controls by myself while outside of the car where I could press the starter, so I was neglecting it. Bad gas probably wasn't helping the situation. With my brother's on the starter so I could work the controls and some fresh gas, it fired right up.

    I had it running (with water in it!) for about 2 minutes. It ran until it used up all the fuel. It seems like it's wanting to idle fast (even with the throttle all the way up) - I'm having to use the choke to calm it down - and smoke was just pouring off the manifolds and out of the carb after it was shut off, so I think it's running hot too. Any thoughts?? Is it just burning off the crud after sitting for so long, or am I probably looking at a failed head gasket/cracked block?



    [​IMG]

    Very thick white smoke coming out of the carb after it died.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021

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