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Hot Rods CDI....who’s running ‘em on their hot rod?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Norris McCarty, Jan 10, 2021.

  1. Norris McCarty
    Joined: Apr 19, 2007
    Posts: 346

    Norris McCarty
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    While capacitive discharge ignitions may not generally be regarded as traditional, there are some that are. I’ve been running the Winterburn CDIs on all of my hot rods for many years. They were first introduced in 1962 in the same configuration that I have on my 40 coupe. I first ran them on my early Porsche outlaws and have used them ever since. I still run points and tradition coils and wires. Points will last indefinitely as they are only a trigger with a CDI.
    What other “early” CDIs are out there?
    Who’s running CDIs on their traditional cars?
    http://www.capacitordischargeignition.com/
    24730E66-9DF0-43DB-B049-C6D44C69EE0D.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
  2. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 6,825

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    Only thing CDI I ever had was on my 1970 O/T kawasaki 500 bike with surface gap plugs. Lippy
     
  3. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 7,856

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    MK II comes to mind, and Judson. I've got a NAPA brand setup still in the box. It must be pre-'64, no zip code in the address.
     
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  4. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,935

    squirrel
    Member

    there were a bunch of small companies making CD ignition boxes in the mid 60s. They're traditional for the end of the HAMB time period.

    I don't seem to put enough miles on my old stuff these days to bother with having a CD box. And keeping 50 or so year old electronics is it's own little challenge.

    but I'd like to see pics of cars with them....the old ones are pretty cool things.
     
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  5. Norris McCarty
    Joined: Apr 19, 2007
    Posts: 346

    Norris McCarty
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Cool.
    There maybe more like the Winterburn, but I like the fact that you can switch them back to Kettering(points ignition) with the flip of the switch.
    I like anything that’ll make these old engines perform more efficiently and still be traditional.
     
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  6. mickeyc
    Joined: Jul 8, 2008
    Posts: 1,363

    mickeyc
    Member

    I have an old Mallory cdi distributor and box with a cable tach drive. I bought this unit from Jakes Sped Equipment in New Orleans per Mr. Jakes recommendation. He told me it would work well with the no alternator set up I had on a round track racer.
    Jake said it would make hot spark with low battery voltage.
    It does made a low pitched whine noise when the ignition switch is activated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
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  7. They were really popular in the late '60s and early '70s still. I had one new in the old box for a while complete with distributer custom made for it. That would have been high end of it. Most of the time it was an ad on to the original ignition.
     
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  8. bedwards
    Joined: Mar 25, 2015
    Posts: 279

    bedwards
    Member

    I have a vintage Tiger CDI unit that worked well until it didn't. It needs a SCR and I just haven't sprung for a replacement. I would like to have a working one like it that allows switching from CDI to regular ignition if there is a problem.
     
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  9. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 6,709

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    Wasn’t it John Ligenfelter , not sure if that’s how you spell his name, that used them on the Corvettes he built in the late 70’s and early 80’s? He was making some major hp with turbos and blowers and had to have an ignition that the spark didn’t blow out. Or maybe I’m thinking of someone else....
     
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  10. HarryT
    Joined: Nov 7, 2006
    Posts: 722

    HarryT
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I bought this Tiger 500 unit in the early 70's and never installed it. May use it on the current roadster project. This unit has a switch that allows you to go back to the normal system. 20210111_091347.jpeg

    Sent from my LG-H700 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  11. Norris McCarty
    Joined: Apr 19, 2007
    Posts: 346

    Norris McCarty
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Those Tiger CDIs are cool units. I've heard a lot of good things about them.
    My Winterburn also has the switch. I've been using the Winterburns on different cars for 30 plus years and have never had to "flip the switch" yet, but it's nice to know it's there.
     
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  12. I have a couple of Mk 10 units, and a Heathkit unit (that I built), all of which have the switch that allows the driver to switch back to the conventional ignition. I have been, and still am, running a couple of the Heathkit (MK 10) units, the earliest one of which, I installed in 1969,
    I have had to replace one SCR, and that was because of an inadequate sized heat sink ( a design flaw).
    I also have a couple of Tiger units, and another unit, that has no brand name. The one with no brand name, is a potted unit, and is entirely different in design from the others.
    I love these systems, and would not run a point triggered system without them.
    Bob
     
  13. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,173

    Budget36
    Member

    So it seems the points trigger the CDI, which charges the coil?

    So if I were to look on 1800-hotrodder, is there a good, proven unit I can purchase?
    My truck has several “non vintage” parts on it, but I like the idea of just keeping the cam lobes lubed and checking gap now and then as opposed to going Petronix, etc.
     
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  14. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 2,212

    Elcohaulic

    I've been using this kind of ignition for decades.. Never had a set of points go badeven after 50,000 miles.. I have a 454 now that has a HEI and I'm pulling all that and using a 1962 iron points distributor with the mechanical tach take off.

    I have a version of the Mark 10 and tried it but it had a slight miss, I think it was the Packard 440 copper core wires..
    I had another one in a Pontiac 462, stock single points distributor, MSD6AL, shielded wires and it ran great..

    I was going to try to use a dual point with a three way switch. Connect the coil - to the common with a set of points to each of the two terminals left. I'm thinking since the points are at a different location, every time I flip the switch the timing should go up or down. By how much I have no idea.. Just one of those projects I've had on the board for decades lol..
     
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  15. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 9,214

    mgtstumpy
    Member

    I bought a new Professional Products CDI with rev limiter and matching distributor for my car however I'm not using it now, change of plans.
     
  16. The Delta Mk 10 is extremely well built, and was also sold as kits or completed units, under the Heathkit and Radio Shack brand name. These units all have the selector switch that allows a person to select between the CD ignition and the standard ignition. Any of these units would be ideal.
    The Tiger CDI and its lookalikes does not look as robust, but functionally it is the same design. I also have a couple of these and I have not had a problem with them. With these units, using plugs that are gapped at .040 or .045 in, will fire, even in engines that tend to oil foul plugs. The point wear will be minimal. All I have to do annually, is file, to remove the oxidation, lubricate the felt with grease, and oil the distributor tube. I have been running one set of points for over thirty years.
    Over the years, I have had one fail, but it was a Lucas coil, so my expectations were not high in regard to its reliability.
    I should also add, that I had one situation while using the CDI, where the condenser failed, and stranded me until I figured out that the CD unit was still humming, and the only other culprit could be the condenser. I cut the lead on the condenser, and drove home. After some research, I learned that the CD unit will work quite well without the condenser, but if you had to switch back to the conventional ignition, the points would burn out quite quickly without the condenser in the circuit.
    I also have an MSD 5, but it is designed in a way that not only provides high voltage, but it also delivers more current. It is on my shelf right now.
    Bob
     
  17. I ran a CD ignition back in the 60s but I couldn't tell you what maker. I'm pathetically weak with electric/electronic concepts so I guess I just followed the installation instructions by the numbers. But I think I recall having to bypass the ballast resistor. (?)
     
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  18. That is correct, you could use the full 12 volts with no problem and no increased points wear.
    Bob
     
  19. Fabulous50's
    Joined: Nov 18, 2017
    Posts: 513

    Fabulous50's
    Member
    from Maine

    May I ask why wouldnt you go with a pertronix Igniter III? I put one in my '59 to avoid buying C-country points. Adjustable rev limiter too.
     
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  20. Norris McCarty
    Joined: Apr 19, 2007
    Posts: 346

    Norris McCarty
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You may have had to bypass the the ballast resistor with that CDI, but you don’t on my unit. If you flip the switch back from CDI to points, it’s the full “points system”.....resistor, condenser and all. That’s what interesting to me about finding out what was going on with electronics in the 60s. Most don’t see CDI as “traditional” on our old cars, but in fact they are. Just on the later end of traditional.
    Oh, and let’s not make this about Pertronix and such please. They definitely aren’t traditional.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
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  21. There is no "need" to bypass the ballast resistor, and yes, you would need to switch it back into the circuit when you switched back to the points ignition.
    Bob
     
  22. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,029

    Mike VV
    Member
    from SoCal

    I had a Delta MK 10, CDI for a few years, till it failed somewhere along the way. Don't recall the details.
    My grandmother got one each, for my dad and I. I don't recall what happened to the one that dad had.

    Mike
     
  23. It was almost always the case that the SCR failed. There were two issues, the first, was not using a large enough heat sink on the SCR, and the second, is that the voltage rating of the SCR was not adequate to work at the working voltages of the unit.
    The larger the gap of the plugs, the greater the load on the CDI, because the gap determines the required secondary voltage to fire the plugs.
    Bob
     
  24. I know that CDI stands for Capacitor Discharge Ignition, but please enlighten me on how they work. I’m guessing the points trigger the capacitor? What causes the coil to discharge? I do know how standard point ignition works. Thanks for the help Guys!


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  25. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,173

    Budget36
    Member

    Radio Shack is long gone as far as I know in my area, I haven’t seen Heath Kit in as many years.
    Maybe you haven’t looked lately and I understand, but what’s out there today?
     
  26. The simple, point triggered CDI units are all old, and the only ones you would likely find are used units on an auction site or garage sale. They were fairly common, until they were replaced by electronic ignition from the automotive makers. With the new systems, there was no longer a need for CDI units.
    Bob
     
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  27. The simple explanation is, the CDI unit takes the 12 volts supplied by the battery, and converts it to approximately 400 volts on the primary side. This 400 volts, is triggered by the point system, and so instead of 12 volts going to the primary side of the ignition coil, there is 400 volts. This increased voltage produces up to 35 times the secondary voltage in the coil to fire the plugs.
    If you use the stock plug gap, the voltage at which the plug fires will be the same as the stock system. The advantage of the CDI system, is that you can gap your plugs up to .050 in, and this increases the voltage required to fire the plugs.
    These systems often made an immediate improvement in cars with issues such as fouling plugs. It also improves starting in cold climates.
    The added advantage over the old stock ignition system, was that it reduced the requirement to frequently file or replace the points. The reason for this, is that the current in the primary side triggering circuit, is reduced from approximately 2 amps, down to .2 amps, so there is no arcing across the points.
    There is more, but that covers the basics.
    Bob
     
  28. Thanks Bob, I appreciate the answer, now I understand. I’ll have to look into one of these on my next build.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  29. Norris McCarty
    Joined: Apr 19, 2007
    Posts: 346

    Norris McCarty
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You can still buy new points triggered CDIs. Read the first post.
    I have zero affiliation with Winterburn.....I’ve just used the CDIs for well over 30 years..... never a minutes problem in everything from 50’s Porsches to flathead Ford hot rods.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
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  30. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,173

    Budget36
    Member

    Here’s my thoughts, if something happens to the CDI, seems a flip of the switch and you can be back on the road.
    Not that simple with a conversion
     
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