Technical Do We Outsmart Ourselves?

Reading (and responding) to some of the tech threads, I was struck as to how when using 'upgrade' parts newer than the theoretical '65 cutoff how some issues tend to multiply. The @flynbrian48 brake issues post is almost a case study of this....

'Back in the day', the usual parts you would select weren't much different in many cases from what you had and there wasn't that much difference between makes either. Using 'what was available' was considerably easier to do and generally much simpler.

That's no longer the case. The manufacturers have gotten much more sophisticated in their offerings and that has bled down into the sub-systems used on the vehicles. Brian's travails in needed parts demonstrates this. But what should also be thought about is why those parts are different. The OEMs don't make changes just for the hell of it; it costs money to design/build/stock all these various bits. But they've also 'tuned' these parts for performance in specific application much better than they used to, where we seem to pick on the basis of low cost and/or commonality, not quite the same thing. Many of the vendors do the same thing, generally responding to market forces so I won't put the blame on them. And few of us (including many vendors) have the engineering expertise to easily understand this.

As a case in point, many of the suggestions in Brian's case was to try to match caliper piston diameters but does that tell the whole story? How about relative brake pad sizes? Change the pad size, and now the PSI applied relative to the rotor changes. Are there other, less obvious changes? What I'm trying to say is while these parts generally work better, their operating 'range' has likely narrowed and may not be as 'forgiving' to mis-matching.

Now I'm not advocating that we abandon the later parts because they're 'too complicated'. The vintage stuff is getting harder to find and more expensive all the time, and doesn't always meet current safety needs when competing on the public roads. And after all, Hotrodding has always been about improving the breed.

Anyway, food for thought....

 

for some older stuff ('50-'65) there are some interchange manuals available - but, as more newer parts are used definitely gets tough for the average guy to know what can replace what - especially when one gets out of the Ford/Chevy world where there are lots of aftermarket parts - you are right, the old days of wandering through wrecking yards for parts that can be used in a Hot Rod are pretty scarce.

 

Part of our problem I think is that many of us are trying to match modern performance to traditional cars. I see a lot of guys using parts because they think they are going to build a canyon carver but hang them on a vintage part that is not up to the task.

I am guilty as charged. I have come to grips with it for the most part. But I still find myself looking at late model crap and thinking that it will make my old crap better. Usually it is a major headache and made it different instead of better.

 

I do, whenever possible

I think 'beaner is on to something....

 

My dad has always said that if you change one thing you have to change everything attached to it! I'm looking at getting a different rear and I have to check the driveshaft. Looking at new front suspension, have to make sure the mounting points are stiff and I won't get bump steer. However, I think it's possible to take a classic car and get it to perfom at a modern level, but it depends on money, time, and the skill of who's making it. I'm just a kid, so I don't know much, but I understand that my 60 year old piece of iron isn't going to be performing like my friend's new car unless I put allot of time and money into it, especially in the handling department!

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A friend of mine has spent untold hours and cash trying to get a 1953 Studebaker coupe to handle and ride like a modern car using the stock suspension. 4 summers of driving and hasn’t got it yet. Overthinking

 

I like to refer to situations like that as "going around the world to get across the street."

 

Smartest thing I’ve read here lately. My take has been if I want new car performance I would simply go buy one. I’ve owned new OT performance cars and I’ve sold them all over the last few years. I’m sure many of them can out perform many of our cars. I could care less at this point in my life. If anything, when I joined the H.A.M.B. a few years ago (and as a technician and shop owner for 30 years working on the all of the modern tech) it was a change of pace for me. I have since started to really embrace the older stuff (pre ‘59 for me is old).
Good man Pork...Regards, Randy



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Sometimes it's like walking a mile in another's shoes...there is a lot to consider...BUT that is a passion and I think of the Old Yeller and Jimmy Summers/Max Balchowsky crowd back in the day...they were doing the same...win some lose some...I suppose some mods made to improve things ended tragically...sad but true and a reality even today...kinda scary when you think about it...

 

I totally agree, for me one of the great things about our cars is that they haven't been refined to the level of today's cars.
I do like to upgrade parts that will add in performance and reliability.
The thrill is getting our cars to perform at the max while retaining the original character of the car.
I want a time machine that hauls ass and looks good doing it.
NORM

 

LOL, I saw your post and though, "I am totally guilty of this.". And, there I was. First sentence in...
When I get too frustrated with the DeSoto, I go to this, which has it's own problems, but the tech I understand.

 

I have always felt making [or trying to make] an old car perform like a new car was wrong. especially if "new" car means anything 10 years [+-] or newer. at work we have a Buch of new stuff, one of which is a Ford transit van. what a piece of crap to drive. it gets over 30 mpg, that is all that is good about it, if you care about that kind of thing. it has NO throttle response, shifts too much, torque steers, and gives up at stop lights. just awful to drive. the other that is a bore fest to drive is a new 2020 corvette. yes I said boring, you are sooo disconnected from the road and it isolates you from all driving sensations, unless your breaking laws, IT IS NOT FUN. I prefer the '61 corvette 4 speed over it.
I never want my car to drive like a new car.

 

I'm simple. (Insert Joke here...)
I've tried to be more complex but it just doesn't work out.
I've built my heap (avatar) a few different way's over the past 30 years, powertrain "upgrade's", brake and suspension "upgrade's", chassis mod's, the list goes on and on. (Kinda' like this post... ) Like Porknbeaner said, it made it different not necessarily better. This time around, I'm putting it back the way it came from the factory, except for a warmed over 327 and a M-22 with a 4.56 rearend. (It is a Hot Rod after all...) I'm good with manual drum brake's, no power window's or A/C, and factory suspension. I know everyone has different need's, want's, and desire's and if it works for them, then by all means, go for it! I just prefer to keep thing's simple now a day's. The simplicity is what keep's us coming back to these 'Ol Beauty's IMHO, so why stray too far from what they really are when we're building them and kill the point in time that we're trying to go back to? Sorry to be so long winded, and I hope no one fell asleep reading this...

 

Having done Mix-n-Match for most of my 70+ years I've accepted a few things. Most of the Engineers are pretty smart. So I try to understand the Total system I want to graph into my Old Vehicle. I don't want Ford, GM and Volkswagen brake parts all mixed together in my Brake system. Rack and pinion isn't always a good choice. Just because He/They have a high dollar welder don't make them a good welder. The hardest lesson to accept is that 90 percent of Aftermarket Venders are just in business for the money. They really don't care if it don't work after they have your credit card number. Half page color adds in our favorite automotive magazine don't mean the Co. represented is worth a plug nickel, just that they could pay for the Add.

 

Yes!!! I have manual 4-wheel drum brakes on my ‘64 Goat. Everything is rebuilt original parts or NOS. I’ve worked hard at making them perform as it did when new. I’ve had others drive it and ask what kind of brake upgrades I did to it. Lol. They can’t believe that it was made that way in ‘64. Sure, I’m not doing road courses or anything stupid. It stops great compared to the rest of the goofballs on the road on their phones and not paying attention. Randy


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When I posted this, my intent was as more of a 'public service' announcement than anything else. Yeah, I've tried the 'can I get late-model performance out of my heap' thing and after dumping a lot of time/money into it to get about halfway there, realized that the next step would cost about the same and I probably wouldn't like the finished product anyway. I'm done chasing that dream.

But abandoning these upgrades at any level isn't necessarily the answer either. I think everyone here will recognize the fact that our cars as we build them (i.e. HAMB acceptable) will never attain the handling/braking capabilities of most late-models. Contrary to some popular beliefs, drum brakes are not and never will be 'as good as' a properly set-up disc/drum or all-disc system; if they were, you'd still find them in OEM applications. But how much upgrade you need will vary widely; where/how you drive will definitely enter into it. And it shouldn't be a decision based only on how much personal risk you're willing to accept; you can be risking others.

We also shouldn't forget that Hotrodding had a pretty poor reputation at one time; there is still an institutional memory of that. While street racing was the main reason, unsafe builds ran a close second; NHRA spent a lot of time/money changing that idea. If the perception that our cars are a danger to others develops (deserved or not), we could end up facing use restrictions or worse. We could end up with a regulatory thicket to negotiate such as the ones a lot of the overseas guys have to deal with. If the day ever arrives that I can only drive my cars to sanctioned events due to 'safety concerns', I'll be done with this hobby.

 

I believe I have a unique perspective on the topic of incorporating modern mechanicals and safety into a build. We drive our cars, spend a lot of time in them, with almost NONE of that milage or time engaged in a "car show", which honestly, I have come to almost loathe. Sometimes that leads me into "non -traditonal" territory, and when that happens I leave that part out here, and the hood shut if it's likely to offend someone at a show (although I have happily lit up the occasional idiot who says something like, "I hope you didn't put a Chevy in that." Technically it was a GMC...).
I admit too that I like challenging myself, and doing things that other people can't do. Sometimes I outsmart myself, as you so aptly point out, but, I will get whatever it is, be it this problem, or something else, figured out. I admit that it wrankled me that someone made a comment on brake issue with the DeSoto thread insinuating that I might be endangering myself or others with the car, and they'd want to know if my car were next to them on the highway. If that were the case, I'd have ignored or pretended the problem I'm having wasn't there, and not spent the time effort and money I have to try to make it not only better than it is now, but better than it was back THEN.
I've always succeeded. I will this time too, hopefully with advice and input from here.
I sold my beautiful '34 roadster after this because I was rattled about the consequences had we been in that car instead of this one. I've gotten over that and am building another one, with a 68 year old engine, drum brakes, and bias ply tires. It's like riding a motorcycle. One has to accept the risk, and accept the consequences of what is usually someone elses's stupidity or mistake. All I can do is make my cars the best I can, given the confines and restraint of the style of the build, the intended use, and the choice of components that dictates what I can use. If I have to leave the hood shut, and you can't see the running gear, I don't talk about that part here, I'm fine with that, I make it work for us.

 

I figured out a long time ago that I did not have enough money to purchase or adapt the latest shiny go fast billet whatever, and I am ok with that. My old junk has 283s or 327s, carburetors, manual transmission and for the most part drum brakes, but I don't cut corners on maintenance and upkeep. I am building a 56 Chevy to Drag Race with my son that would look more at home in a 1970 Car Craft magazine than the track in 2021 and I don't care. For me, it is about having fun and maybe reliving some of my youth. I am not saying anything against those who build those higher tech cars, but it is my belief that when they are done they are just new cars that have been reskinned.

 

Thanks for the reality check. I plead guilty to overthinking. It is not just parts interchange. I agree with what is written above but I have two others to add to the list.

The first is trying to adapt a part because I have it instead of spending $100 to buy a more appropriate part. Three days latter after having consumed more than $100 in materials, consumables, maybe a broken mill cutter or worse I am back to the drawing board.

The other is things like paint. Brand A may offers a minimum 25 years rust protection and brand B may offer 50. Brand C is made from angel tears that does not do anything but the price brings tears to your eyes. Brand C also says that if you get rust before 100 years it is not their product but your application. In all honesty if I start to get rust in 25 plus years it probably wont be a problem. Yet I get sucked in a spend a day researching is there something better than Brand C.

The list goes on. I have to tell myself that this is meant to be a hobby and is meant to be fun.

Steve

 

I don't think it's correct to make a blanket statement that builders of all pre 65 hot rods can't rival the performance of most of today's performance cars. There are lots of variations of the types of cars we build. Some of the contraints that the Hamb puts forth may make it more difficult, but then not every rodder in the world actually limits their build to those criteria. Many people really don't care to build cars that can compete....that's their choice. I know that there will always be some cars.....new or old that can beat what I have, but there will be many cars both new and old that can't beat me. How is that different from the 60s when hot rodders built cars to compete with/ beat the new tech muscle cars?
While new cars may have a technological advantage, I can build vehicles that are lighter and have the advantage of superior traction during acceleration. I say that because I won't be handicapped by rubber band sidewalls ( or Hamb requirements). I have the luxury of cubic inches that most street driven late models don't have. They can supercharge......and I can too.
Nothing has really changed. If someone wants a truly fast car using pre- electronic fuel injected technology, they can still do so. They may fudge a little on the pre65 guidelines, but it's not that hard to do. I think it's still just a choice that each builder makes when they decide what car they want to build.

 

Guilty as charged.

I go about it a little different, adapting newer OEM parts on older stuff. Over time I've grown to dislike much of the aftermarket stuff: poor fit and lack of spares down the road are concerns.

Im also cheap, grabbing junkyard parts from late models and modifying can be pretty cost effective. The original parts on a lot of the cars Ive worked on are so beat to death its like starting from scratch. EX: drum brakes where the backing plates are the only thing salvageable

 

The only concessions to the modern on my truck are the tires/ rims and the windshield washer pump, oh and the backup lights. The rest is as lord Henry intended. As has been noted before if kids today had to drive a non syncro first trans and drum brakes all around, there would be less of them looking at their phone.

 

Grasping the concept,
improvised with modified, fabricated parts.
It’s very possible, sometimes it’s easy and sometimes you’ve got to fight for it.
My dad always said,” leave it stock” because it’s your cheapest easiest way to a predictable outcome that was satisfactory for the limitless.
But he also said “I know you won’t (leave it stock) so before you start make sure you’re really good at figuring out problems and making your own parts”

Getting in this fight of upgrades and increases without the preparation is going to end up with getting your ass handed to you.

 

Personal experience says that issues usually come up when we go to mix and match parts That while coming from a similar system don't all come from the same system,

When I had the 69 Camaro subframe under the 48 I had 72 Monte Carlo front disk and calipers, 66 Caprice 12 bolt posi rear axle and a 74 Pontiac Catalina booster. Master cylinder and pedal assembly. That setup stopped almost too good and you had to be seriously gentle with the brake pedal or it locked down right now. It took a learning experience for me and few other people ever drove it more than in or out of the shop.
I don't fault anyone who actually drives their car serous distances with wanting better brakes. Sometimes we may need to a bit more research before we proceed though.

 

Well, what we do and see , damn sure ain't for everyone. LOL

 

Are you truly driving an old car if it doesn't ride, brake, and turn like an old car? one thing I've learned from joining the HAMB is that it's ok to NOT have disc brakes or power steering. It worked back then, and it'll still do the job now

 

I guess I fall in the old tech (for the most part) the Stude has stock drum brakes (granted they are finned Studebaker Hawk, well the whole chassis is 58 Hawk) and stock steering. I've just finished "upgrading" to a TT differential (Posi) out of a parts car, other than engine/transmission, the belly button one, the brakes have a dual cylinder. The car drives fine, rides a little "stiff" with 1 1/2 coils out of the front and two inch blocks but I don't care. By the way it stops pretty good for not having power assist. I know I am not a great mechanic, probably closer to a "fabricobbler" (love that term) but by keeping it simple I think it is safer and within my skill sets. Well, a lot safer than the motorcycles I used to ride

 

Actually Brian, I don't think it was you in particular. This is more of a 'group' thing IMO. You depended on 'group common knowledge' and many of us do, but common knowledge can be like common sense; it can occasionally be elusive... LOL.

The HAMB is a great place. Got a question? Ask, check out the answers, make a judgement call as to how much you like said answer and in most cases you'll be fine. Personally, I'm more paranoid than most as my luck is too often like your brake issue only it could be with anything. I can't tell you how many times I've heard from a vendor of an item that's failed/wrong say to me 'We've never had that happen...'. Well, you have now.

I tend to worry stuff like this to death. Slows the process and occasionally pisses off a vendor, but has cut down on the re-dos over the years. But the unasked question won't get an answer either. Seeing an aftermarket part that says 'may need mods in some cases' usually for me means it will be nearly unrecognizable by the time it fits. You do tend to get gun-shy after a while.... LOL

 

What would you call replacing parts with newer stuff because the old stuff was worn out or missing? Case in point, my 47 Lincoln. It still uses drum brakes, fronts are stock 47, but the rears are 66-67 Fairlane because they came on the 8” rear I put under it. The original rear was long Mia. Engine and trans are a roller 5.0 Ford and AOD, replacing a 350/350 Chevy that replaced the original V12 sometime in the past. Why? Because I had it and I prefer Ford power. I used a Speedway hanging pedal, 8” dual booster and Corvette style master cylinder. Why? Original mc was rusted solid, lines rusted off, so why not use all new stuff?
Another thing, I have electric power windows, used a no name kit. Why? The original windows were hydraulic operated, the cylinders were rusted solid, and the pump and lines were missing. Easier and cheaper to just use the aftermarket stuff.

Sometimes it’s just easier to use aftermarket or later model parts. I could have hunted down a V12 and manual trans, a original rear end, bought rebuilt hydraulic cylinders and pump for the windows, etc, but I’m not a restorer. Everything I have replaced has been with something newer, but added up altogether still don’t equal a new car, only an improved old car, which is all I want. I’m not going to be running 85 on an interstate, but if I want to, it’s capable of it. I feel like I’ve just made it more enjoyable to drive. And if I break it, I won’t be looking all over the country for rare old parts. Only thing I’ve had to order that wasn’t on the shelf was the front brake cylinders, and they fit several different makes and models so they aren’t rare.