Hot Rods Need Top Loader 4 Speed Advice.

I have a 1966 Mustang 4 speed top loader behind the 8 BA in my roadster. I know the transmission is good as it came out of my brother in laws car which he has owned since 68. Worked fine no problems at all. I had converted it to a T176 Jeep shift tower. It was working fine for a while with no complications then it got locked up in reverse and wouldn't come out. I pulled the shifter out of the top cover and was able to finally get the cover off. After looking at what I had I decided the stuff was simply too worn out to handle shifting properly. I had bought it used off a Jeep with a lot of miles on it. Pivot pin holes were wallowed out and so on so I decided to replace the top cover. Got a new cover, installed a new shifter, and put it back on the tranny. Drove the car for a little bit and the same thing happened. Locked in reverse again. I figured maybe some of the other components must be as worn given the age of the Jeep so I replaced all the shift forks, the lug on the shift arm (which was worn a lot), and the spring loaded reverse loc lever (not sure what it is officially called?) Put everything back together and reinstalled it in the transmission. Shifted it in an out of 1st., 2nd., 3rd., and 4th. no problem. Shifted into and out of reverse no problem at first. Then it locked up again. So, I have a couple questions for those with knowledge of the 4 speed top loader. First is there something I am overlooking? The reverse idler gear slides back and forth on it's shaft easily as I have moved it with a screw driver to align it when I put the cover on. I can move all the shifter forks on the bench easily enough by hand. I have lubed everything up well. What am I missing? Second is how important are the two dowel bolts that align the cover to the transmission to all of this? Would not having those installed make it so the shifter forks are not in the correct position to slide fore and aft? Didn't have them from the start but found out about them by researching the web. Any thoughts or help appreciated. Really tired off putting this cover on and off the transmission with all new parts and getting no where.

 

I have had similar problems with the same trans. and shifter combo to the point I replaced the trans and shifter with stock trans and Hurst shifter. That Jeep stuff they cobbled up to get a top mounted shifter is some flimsy shit and I had way too much trouble with it to try any further. The parts were just too thin and flimsy.
I would suggest you amend the title to your post to reflect that this is about a 4 speed toploader, as many people might think this is about the old 3 speed..

 

Thanks dirty old man. Advice taken on the title. They do get some serious miles on them in Jeeps so they must work as they used them for a number of years in them. Not arguing with you just saying...

 

Agree that they have lasted for long periods in their original use. Perhaps here is an area of the conversion procedure that is critical that we're both off base on?
The parts just didn't seem beefy enough to hold up to "enthusiastic" shifting.

 

You might want to check with top loader re-builders David Kee or Dan Williams. I think one of them was selling an upgraded version of the Jeep top shifter. I wanted to buy a Jeep shifter back in the '90s, but changed my mind when I learned how weak and cheaply made they were.

 

I do know that Dan Williams is not a fan of the setup.

 

I think what you say is true if your shifting the thing like your racing but doing normal driving I would think the thing should at least work correctly for that. I'm not beating on it just doing normal street driving. I really need to figure out why it wants to lock in reverse given I have a fair amount of money on all new shifter parts. Hoping someone who had the same problem can enlighten me to what solved it for them.

 

Nobody got anything? No one with any input on top loader 4 speed issues?

 

Take another look at that spring loaded reverse rocker or whatever its called. Mine gave me trouble locking up in second and reverse a few times. Sometimes I could get it out with the shifter and sometimes I had to pull the shifter and stick a screwdriver down there to put it back in neutral. Anyway, it seemed to me the spring loaded pin would slip past where it should stop and would bind it up. It's been a while but I think I pushed that pin back in and used the screwdriver to lever it (forward??) so it would catch better. I think there is a fine line between go and no go with that thing. I haven't had any problems since, but I probly will now. Good luck.

 

Thanks woodsnwater. I figured the old spring loaded reverse detent item was worn and that was why it was slipping out so I replaced it along with the reverse shifter fork. I now have all new parts inside the case along with a brand new cover and a shifter. Still didn't want to go into reverse. I put it back on the transmission and put 4 bolts in it just for testing it. First to second, third to fourth ok, no go into reverse? Can slide the reverse idler gear real easily with a screw driver so I'm stumped?

 

If you clamp the shift cover in the vise and go in and out of reverse and other gears does it all feel smooth?

 

Call Dan Williams. He has forgotten more about top loaders than any of us could ever hope to learn.
Besides he will entertain you for an hour or how ever long you want to talk.

 

Interlock shot

 

So are you saying you can take the shift lever out and shift it into reverse easily with a screw driver? Through the tower? And read what 51box said above.

 

If I put the cover upside down in my vise as in the second pic above, I can grab the shift forks and move them forward and backward like the shift lever would when shifting. I am just doing what the shifter would be doing but from the bottom with my hands. They all work with no problem. All feel tight as I would expect new parts to feel but can move them easily enough. The reverse interlock is new (I know that doesn't guarantee anything) as is all the forks and the lug on top of the 3 to 4 slider. I can move the spring loaded reverse gate easy enough with a screw driver so I can tell it will move out of place to allow the shifter to locate in the slot to move it into reverse gear. Only problem is when I put it on the transmission it won't go into reverse. Yes I have aligned the reverse gear so the fork sets in place over it when installing. I appreciate the suggestions and ideas. I sent an email to David Kee Toploaders to ask about the dowl/alignment bolts as there are supposed to be 2 in the cover and I don't have them. Never did. Their bolt kit doesn't either. Their reply is they don't use them at all. Still thinking they should be there though as they help locate the cover and the shift rods parallel to the centerline of the gear cluster below it. Without them I wonder if it gets twisted during install and it's enough to not allow reverse to work?

 

I do know that the the stock shifter cover for the 4 and 3 speed Jeep shifters used specific shouldered bolts to keep the shifter in place, if you don’t have those the top/shifter will move around. That could be part of the problem. I had to find an original set of bolts for my Jeep shifter conversion.

 

Thanks Jason. I was wondering if that might be part of it. I don't know the measurements for the dowel bolts or where I can find them. I thought David Kee might have them but nope. So I was thinking I might be able to take some aluminum rod the same dia. as the hole in the transmission case and then drill it to the outside dia. of the bolts. Cut it to length and then tap them into the guide holes in the transmission. Then I can use whatever bolts I need to and have the alignment correct.

 

Shoulder bolts are commonly available at your better bolt vendors, I'd check that out first.

 

I ended up getting a used set from a Jeep specialist yard in PA off of eBay. 25 bucks for the set if I remember right.

 

Thanks Steve and Jason. I checked ePAY but didn't find any. I am going to check with my local hardware folks as they have a pretty good selection of bolts there. I think I can find them. I'll post back with results when I get a moment to play with this.

 

If you've got a bolt supplier near an industrial area, they should have shoulder bolts. You might have to drill out the cover holes.

 

Just for the process of elimination do what 51box said and vice up the top plate and use the shift lever to make sure there is no binding.

 

OK, confusion. In your first couple posts you said "locked in reverse", "won't come out", etc. but you've also said:

and...

Is the issue that it gets stuck IN reverse, or won't shift INTO reverse, or both?

 

Ebb I have screwed around with this thing so much that I have had both situations. When it first happened I shifted into reverse and then when moving the shift lever out of reverse the lever moved and flopped around but the transmission stayed in reverse. The pivot pins for the shifter handle in the cover were sloppy and I figured that was the problem. So I bought a new cover replaced the old one by swapping the other parts over and reinstalled it. It started out ok and I could get all gears then it did the same thing as above. So I figured it must be the other older parts I moved over. So I bought all new forks, shift lug, reverse lock out, new shift lever, and installed them all on the new cover. Reinstalled it on the transmission and then when trying to shift I could do 1 - 2 or 3 - 4 but it wouldn't go into reverse at all. Put it on an off multiple times to be sure I got the fork over the reverse gear while installing. I thought maybe the new stuff was just tight and not worn in but I couldn't get it in reverse. The odd thing is I can move all the forks back and forth by hand on the bench with no trouble. I can move the reverse gear in the trans back and forth with a screw driver and it slides easily. So when researching the problem I saw a youtube rebuilding a t176 who said you need to make sure you reinstall the shoulder bolts which align/locate the cover on the transmission and wondered if that may be adding to the problem. I appreciate the help.

Woodsnwater I don't have a vice large enough here in the shop to clamp the cover with the forks down so I can use the handle. I think I will take this over to my buddies shop as he has a big ole mother of a vice and try shifting it with the handle to see what the hell is going on there. Appreciate the help.

 

Pressure plate bolts might work out for you too plate?

 

Budget36 I saw those and wondered about them. I will have to look at them. Thanks!

 

@GordonC is that picture you posted of the shifter flipped? The reverse fork is supposed to be on the right shift rail looking at it from the bottom.

 

Yes. Sorry as it was reversed upside down when it came in from my phone to the desktop and I had to flip it around I didn't get the orientation correct.

 

Sounds like the reverse fork is hitting the case on the inside.

 

Well I took the advice of 51box and flipped the cover over and clamped it to the edge of the work bench, installed the shifter, and tested it out. Did find some interesting stuff. What looks to be happening is the first to second fork will usually go back and forth straight without problem but every now and then if the shifter moves off line just a little bit the 1+2 fork moves a little to the side and catches the reverse shifter fork and pulls it forward out of position. Just a little which then causes everything to get locked. I could almost make it do it every time. I did find some differences between the old reverse fork and the new one in a couple areas that were critical when measured with my micrometer. I removed the new one and put the old reverse fork back in and got the same thing. The new fork was about .050 thicker where the slot comes up at an angle. Shown in the pic below. I thought maybe this was the reason the 1+2 fork was grabbing it and pulling it forward but after putting the old one back in that isn't it. It still did it. I also thought once installed the forks have to follow the gear cluster underneath in a straight line forward and backward but that also failed to hold the fork in the proper location and the 1+2 fork pulled the reverse arm forward again and again it locked when I reinstalled it on the transmission to test it. The new fork is on the left in the pic below and they are both just slid onto the shaft to get the pic. Still plugging away at this but I haven't made any headway in solving this.

Saltflats I will check that closely but I didn't see anywhere that might show scuffing or rubbing of the fork.