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Technical T5 HP Ratings

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by jrvariel48, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. jrvariel48
    Joined: Aug 8, 2011
    Posts: 86

    jrvariel48
    Member
    from New Jersey

    So I'm trying to pin down info for HP/TQ ratings for my T5 trans. It's a crappy 4.03 first gear S10
    1352-216 GM 1993 MY 2.2L S-Truck WC P 3.76 4.03 2.37 1.49 1.00 0.76
    I've been using it in my 35 Ford 5 window for 7 years with no problems. I recently built a blown flathead that has more power/torque than the original stock flathead I had in there. Ultimately I'd like to install the 2.95 gear set for better driveability, but the money's not there yet. I'm reading that any WC T5 with an 1 1/8", 26 spline input shaft is for a V8. My trans has that input shaft but it's listed as an S Truck trans so I'm confused there. I'm also reading that ALL WC trans are one HP rating and ALL NWC are another. Just looking for a definitive answer if there is one.
    In the meantime, I want to install a 4.11 rear ratio to make it a little more drivable for now without pulling the trans. Any input would be appreciated.
    Thanks
    Joe
     
  2. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 9,214

    mgtstumpy
    Member

  3. southcross2631
    Joined: Jan 20, 2013
    Posts: 4,413

    southcross2631
    Member

    Torque is what kills a T5 more than horsepower. Depends on how many high rpm shifts and launches you plan on doing with that new motor.
     
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  5. Boryca
    Joined: Jul 18, 2011
    Posts: 709

    Boryca
    Member
    from Detroit

    As @southcross2631 said, it's the torque that'll kill them. If your tires are skinny enough to do burnouts easy, you probably don't have to worry. If they're sticky and you want to launch hard, time to upgrade your trans.
     
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  6. Weedburner
    Joined: Nov 16, 2010
    Posts: 238

    Weedburner
    Member
    from Wa State

    2.95 ratio gearset is much stronger than the 4.03. That's mostly due to the ratio differences between the input shafts and the head gears on the clusters.

    ...4.03 ratio gearset has an input shaft with 16 teeth meshed with 29 teeth on the cluster. If you put 350ftlbs to the 4.03 input shaft, all the gears on the cluster are going to see 635ftlbs.
    ...2.95 ratio gearset has an input shaft with 24 teeth meshed with 31 teeth on the cluster. If you put 350ftlbs to the 2.95 input shaft, all the gears on the cluster are going to see 452ftlbs.

    Looking at it a different way, you could put an additional 183ftlbs into the 2.95 ratio gearset's input shaft if you assume equal strength of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears between the two gearsets. In the real world though, you will lose teeth on the 4.03 input's small dia gear before you hurt 1/2/3 gears. On the 2.95 gearset, you will lose 3rd gear before it's larger dia input teeth fail.

    That said, engine torque isn't what usually breaks manual transmissions in a hot rod. Instead it's almost always a clutch that's pulling inertia out of the rotating assy too fast. A clutch needs to have enough holding power to handle the engine's torque, then excess holding power beyond what's required to hold the engine's torque becomes what controls the rate that inertia gets pulled out of the rotating assy. A grabby clutch can easily pull an additional 450ftlbs of inertia torque out of the rotating assy by pulling the engine down too fast. That extra boost from inertia doesn't last long, but it doesn't take long to hurt a transmission when that extra inertia boost exceeds the transmission's limits.

    If you want to get the most power possible thru a given transmission, one solution is to choose a clutch that just barely has enough clamp pressure to hold the engine's torque, but then slips before it draws too much additional inertia torque. Basically it slows the rate that the clutch pulls engine down after you dump the clutch. First problem with that is finding that clutch with a clamp pressure suited to your engine. 2nd problem is that a clutch's clamp pressure varies over the life of the disc.

    An alternate solution is to choose a clutch that has plenty of holding power for whatever you plan, but then temporarily hold back some of it's clamp pressure to slow down the rate that the clutch pulls the engine down. You can do that by simply adding a clutch hit controller like the ClutchTamer. Pulldown rate becomes adjustable, allowing you to dial it in to a level appropriate for your engine, also allows compensating for changes as the disc wears or you add more power later. Not only do ClutchTamer and Hitmaster clutch hit controllers make your car be less likely to break a transmission, but they also eliminate excessive spinning or bogging during launch. Not unusual for my ClutchTamer or Hitmaster products to shave five tenths or more off a customer's previous best ET.

    Grant
     
  7. I have kind of understood that principal, but never knew someone actually made a "clutch tamer". I always tried to do it manually, but of course, it would end up bogging or spinning the tires most of the time. :cool:
     
  8. 55blacktie
    Joined: Aug 21, 2020
    Posts: 793

    55blacktie

    If you are concerned about breaking the transmission, I would look for a better alternative. How many times have you heard "A chain is only as strong as the weakest link"? Pick a combination of components that will work together. 5.0 Fox Mustangs/w T5 produced 300 ft. lbs. @ 3000 rpm. However, the transmissions had a 3.35 1st gear. Some racers actually launched in 2nd because 1st was too low. The WC T5 does have a 2.95 1st, but I think it has the same torque rating. how you use/abuse it has a lot to do with longevity.
     
  9. 64Pony
    Joined: Oct 18, 2019
    Posts: 44

    64Pony

    A t5z is the way to go. Probably overkill for a flathead though. I’d run what you got unless you plan on doing burnouts and adding sticky tires. Modern driveline has a good history on them.


    Sent from my iPad using H.A.M.B.
     
  10. Weedburner
    Joined: Nov 16, 2010
    Posts: 238

    Weedburner
    Member
    from Wa State

    Better alternative isn't always stronger links, especially if the car will be quicker with a clutch that draws less inertia. Lots of T5 equipped Mustangs in the 10's. Most use the 2.95 gearsets, but there are some on the 3.35 set.

    Oem transmission ratings usually take into account long pulls under load like going up a mountain pass pulling a trailer, not so much an impact load rating. Heat build-up and lube breakdown at a constant 300ftlbs would be close to the same for the different gearsets as tooth size/width is pretty much the same.

    Grant
     
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  11. wuga
    Joined: Sep 21, 2008
    Posts: 563

    wuga
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    There are only 4 Ford Mustang 5.0L tranys with a 2.95 1st gear. 1352-251, 249, 202 and 200. I am currently running Three, two GM WC and a Mustang. All with a 2.95 1st gear. Getting to this point, I have gone through many different ratios but have only been happy with the 2.95, especially in any car 3000 lbs or under. The Ford T5 is slightly stronger, but not available with the shifter in the S10 location. Very few S10s came in a WC configuration, but if you can find a tranny guy familiar with the T5, I have put an S10 tail shaft on a WC Camaro T5 which would bolt right up to your current setup. Otherwise, the next problem is you would have to change adaptors to run a Ford T5.
    Warren
     
  12. Weedburner
    Joined: Nov 16, 2010
    Posts: 238

    Weedburner
    Member
    from Wa State

    I'm actually the guy that makes the ClutchTamer and Hitmaster. Originally the 'tamer was designed to help the Saginaw live at the dragstrip, but didn't take long to realize that controlling clutch hit was just as important to a clutch car as having a converter with the proper flash is for an automatic. Makes riding that fine line between bogging and spinning easy. Pretty much every NMRA Coyote Stock car uses the 'tamer on a diaphragm clutch, same for the Factory Stock class. Lots of drag racers also using my products under the radar. A 'tamer equipped car has won class at NHRA's US nats two years in a row now, this last year on radials. Guys are not only using it on diaphragms, but also to control the hit of SoftLoks, NexGens, Boninfantes, etc. Makes those expensive adjustable clutches even more adjustable by separating the ability to properly slip during launch from the ability to hold the engine in high gear.

    Grant
     
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  13. pitman
    Joined: May 14, 2006
    Posts: 5,148

    pitman

    ^^^No surprise here! Most helpful info Weedburner.
     
  14. jrvariel48
    Joined: Aug 8, 2011
    Posts: 86

    jrvariel48
    Member
    from New Jersey

    I've been shifting through 1st, 2nd and 3rd pretty hard just to check A/F and boost. Mostly above 4000 rpm but no higher than 5500. This is just to make sure it's there when I want it and it's on the money. Again those little blasts are just getting on the highway then it's normal cruising at about 65-70 mph. Thanks
     
  15. jrvariel48
    Joined: Aug 8, 2011
    Posts: 86

    jrvariel48
    Member
    from New Jersey

  16. jrvariel48
    Joined: Aug 8, 2011
    Posts: 86

    jrvariel48
    Member
    from New Jersey

    That chart is really helpful!
    For what it was worth, I did an engine analysis with Joe Abbin from Roadrunner engineering. He's been really helpful with tuning etc. and helped me get the most out of what set up I have. He ran a on paper dyno for me with all my info and came up with the highest HP being 289@5500 rpm and 304TQ@4000rpm. I know it's on paper and has real bearing on what the motor actually puts out. If it were 250HP, I'd be really happy. I agree with you in thinking I should be fine. Thanks Joe
     
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  17. jrvariel48
    Joined: Aug 8, 2011
    Posts: 86

    jrvariel48
    Member
    from New Jersey

    I'm using stock 35 wire wheels with 4 1/2 tread so that shouldn't be a problem. I'm changing to and 8" wide tire in the rear with Artillery rims in the near future, but I don't see many burnouts in my future, unfortunately. Thank you
     
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  18. jrvariel48
    Joined: Aug 8, 2011
    Posts: 86

    jrvariel48
    Member
    from New Jersey

    Grant, that's some awesome info and your Clutch Tamer and Hitmaster sound great!
    I'm running an aluminum flywheel, if that makes any difference. I know it spools up pretty quick and falls off just as fast. I'm also running a 10.5" diaphragm style clutch which seems to grab nicely. The car won't be seeing any track time, I'm just looking for a solid runner. Thanks for the info, Joe
     
  19. jrvariel48
    Joined: Aug 8, 2011
    Posts: 86

    jrvariel48
    Member
    from New Jersey

    I totally agree. I've been looking at a complete trans, but most are Ford cases. The price of the gears I need to change over to a 2.95 set was over 2K at Modern Driveline, but most of the pieces were high quality Tremecs. I've been asking around to see what the cost would be to build me a 2.95 GM case with no tailshaft if possible so I can install my S10 tail. Thanks Joe
     
  20. jrvariel48
    Joined: Aug 8, 2011
    Posts: 86

    jrvariel48
    Member
    from New Jersey

    I'm trying to find someone to put a 2.95 GM trans together for me so I could do just that and add my tailshaft. I'm also running an electronic speedo so I would need to relocate the 40T reluctor. Hopefully that's possible. I think the 2.95 would work out really nice with my 3.25 rear or a 3.50. Basically, by installing a 4.11 rear ratio and keeping my 4.03 gears, I'd be very close to a 2.95 set without using 1st gear of course. I don't have a problem with that because I cruise at 65-70 mph tops. Here in Jersey, that's about all you can do unless you're on the Parkway or the Turnpike! Thank you, Joe
     
  21. Years ago, I called a rebuilder in the OKC area. Some kid in the shop answered the phone. He knew nothing about new transmissions. I asked what he did. He said he rebuilt t5's. I asked what was wrong with most. He said 3rd gear was out of them. A really good shift and it could break. My advise is no speed shifting and you won't break it. When I was building my 32 years ago, I went through all of this. I'm an ex- top fuel racer so driving like an old man wasn't part of the plan. I installed a tremec 3550 and never looked back. I never had the engine dynoed but a few months ago, Richard Holder did one that was almost identical. It had almost 400 lbs. ft. of torque. I think I made the proper decision. However, we all have seen people with pretty stout engines with wc t5's. I just don't know how they are driven. :)
     
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  22. <<< I run a blown 389" SBC making a measly 465 HP and 590 TQ. I had Astro Performance in FL build my GM WC T-5 with all new 9310 gear set, including a billet countershaft bearing retainer, but I retained the stock tail shaft.

    They say the gearset is good for about 575 TQ, but the stock tailshaft is only good for about 400-450 TQ. The bearing retainer keeps the countershaft from pushing out the back of the case and blowing 3rd.

    I use a stock replacement 11" Z-28 diaphragm clutch, but it won't hold a power shift... The car is about 2700 lbs. and a 3:25 gear. So far no problems, but I don't side step the clutch either. It easily spins through 1st and 2nd and finally hooks up in 3rd.

    Here's the link for Astro Perf.
    https://www.astroperformance.com/product/575-torque-a-5-gear-kit-package/
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2020
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  23. jrvariel48
    Joined: Aug 8, 2011
    Posts: 86

    jrvariel48
    Member
    from New Jersey

    That sounds like a lot of fun!! Thanks for the info and the link, let's see where this takes me.
    Joe
     
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  24. jrvariel48
    Joined: Aug 8, 2011
    Posts: 86

    jrvariel48
    Member
    from New Jersey

    Yeah, I'd like to think I can get a season out of it before I come up with the cash for what I really want. It seems to me after all the great info I received, that I can run what I have and install the 4.11 in the rear
    Thanks, Joe
     
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  25. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 23,751

    Deuces

    Yep! I have one behind a 460 horse 351-Windsor with zero problems...
     
  26. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 4,214

    ekimneirbo

    I agree with Montana1;)
     
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  27. Dusty roads
    Joined: Nov 29, 2016
    Posts: 127

    Dusty roads
    BANNED

    I have the T5z tranny in my 48 F1. Before purchasing, I contacted Modern Drive line and gave them the information on my 408 Ford Cleveland stroked motor and the rear end gear ratio.
     
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