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Technical Valve lash driving me crazy. What am I doing wrong?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by RaginPin3Appl3, Nov 30, 2020.

  1. RaginPin3Appl3
    Joined: Mar 31, 2016
    Posts: 1,172

    RaginPin3Appl3
    Member

    I've been attempting to set the valve lash on my 283 all day and I'm at my wits end with it. I've never actually done any of this so bear with me. I started out with all the valve nuts just hand tightened to where I could easily spin the rods by hand. I then tightened all 16 of them down until just past where I could spin them by hand. I then rotated the motor 90 degrees and repeated over 2 full revolutions of the balancer. Some of the valves took all that turning to finally tighten down.

    So from my understanding, the lash should be at roughly 0 on every valve at this point. Okay, so then I go ahead and give each nut a 3/4 turn more. Should be done, right? Well, now, I try to get the motor on TDC so I can get the timing set right... Only there's a problem. I use the finger in spark plug hole method to feel for the #1 to get to TDC, but I never feel any pressure. It's as if there is no compression with the valves lashed...

    So then I went back and loosened all the valves again to just hand tight, and tried the finger in plug hole trick. And just like that I can find TDC using that method. So I thought alright I must have messed up when I lashed the valves, I'll try again. So again I get them all tightened down to 0 lash, but this time, I tried 1/2 a turn over 0. Same problem once I try the compression finger trick again. Then I brought it down to just 1/4 a turn over 0. Same thing!

    So what gives? What exactly am I doing wrong? I used the method in these 2 videos for reference. I find the other ways of doing this to be far too advanced for me, especially since I struggle getting the motor to TDC to use any of those methods.

    Oh, and if it's important, this is a motor that has not been rebuilt by me, but I did have it running about 2 years ago before taking the top end apart to put new gaskets and an intake on. The lifters, valves, etc may be worn, but like I said it was running and I'm confident it should be able to run again without any new parts. The lifters are just stock hydraulic lifters.



     
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  2. jaracer
    Joined: Oct 4, 2008
    Posts: 2,419

    jaracer
    Member

    Do you have solid lifters?
     
  3. RaginPin3Appl3
    Joined: Mar 31, 2016
    Posts: 1,172

    RaginPin3Appl3
    Member

    No, just plain old hydraulic.
     
  4. Yeah if it's solid you need lash, around .030
     

  5. Wanderlust
    Joined: Oct 27, 2019
    Posts: 787

    Wanderlust

    Found the same thing with mine just use one finger an light pressure, then a half turn. Had better luck adjusting it when running, messy as hell but works
     
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  6. 18436572, in that order, EOIC. exhaust opening, adjust the intake, intake closing, adjust the exhaust. Zero lash, add a half turn
     
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  7. I have to say, this is the only method I have had success with. It makes sense, follows the firing order of the engine, and only requires your balancer to be marked at 90 degree intervals to follow.

     
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  8. triumph 1
    Joined: Feb 9, 2011
    Posts: 591

    triumph 1
    Member

    Zero lash must be set when the lifer is on the base circle of the camshaft lobe & preloaded from there. Being able to find TDC on #1 cylinder would make the process easier for you. I often use the valve overlap method. Maybe you can find a video of that on YouTube.....


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
    VANDENPLAS likes this.
  9. getow
    Joined: May 9, 2016
    Posts: 305

    getow
    Member

    Something i found that helps speeds up da progress and makes life alitta more understandable when adjusting valves. 1st. You already know theyre hydraulic. So that eliminates da feeler gauge. 2nd. Regaurdless of where the crank is, or on what stroke the motor is on, when da valve is closed, IT'S CLOSED. I do 1 cylinder at a time, easier to move along that way. More crank turning, but easier to keep track of what da hell im doing. 3rd. Turn motor till valve is closed, adjust, lock down and repeat. Turn crank till da next valve in dat cylinder is closed. Adjust, lock down. Done. 4th. Move to next cylinder, and repeat till ya get em all. You probly want 0 lash and then ½ turn, as previously mentioned.
     
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  10. Bob Lowry
    Joined: Jan 19, 2020
    Posts: 1,488

    Bob Lowry

    I agree....takes a little more turning of the crank, but you only have to do it once!
     
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  11. RaginPin3Appl3
    Joined: Mar 31, 2016
    Posts: 1,172

    RaginPin3Appl3
    Member

    Oh and another thing I forgot to mention, I'm doing this with the intake on, so whatever method I use, I only really will have access to what's under the valve cover. I don't want to take the intake and everything off again, was already a pain getting it to seal and getting the linkage set up right before, not about to do it again if I don't have to.
     
  12. Boryca
    Joined: Jul 18, 2011
    Posts: 709

    Boryca
    Member
    from Detroit

    Sounds to me like you may have tightened all your valves on the base circle of the cam, not on the lobes. You don't have any compression because all your valves are all the way open all the time, they never close.

    Edit: just watched the video. I'm 100% certain this is your issue.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  13. RaginPin3Appl3
    Joined: Mar 31, 2016
    Posts: 1,172

    RaginPin3Appl3
    Member

    So lets say I want to use the method in the videos I posted. The other methods, I understand are a lot better, but I have to admit are very overwhelming to someone who barely knows enough to be dangerous. What do you guys thing I did wrong, and how could I fix that. It definitely seems that I probably had the nuts tightened down too far for the valves to even close, hence the no compression with the finger test. When I go to lash the valves at 0 using that method, should I still be able to spin the rods by hand, but have no vertical movement? both videos sort of just say when you get "contact". Unfortunately even that doesn't really mean much to me. Do they mean when the rod can no longer spin by hand? and if so, couldn't I just tighten them until the rod no longer spins, then back them off until they can just barely spin and call that 0 lash? Every time I've attempted to do anything with the valve train or timing I get overwhelmed quickly because as I said, I barely even know what I'm looking it, don't quite know what I'm doing.
     
  14. getow
    Joined: May 9, 2016
    Posts: 305

    getow
    Member

    Intake on dont matter. Nothing in there todo. Engine turns easier with da spark plugs out also. Valve cover access and an eye to make sure what youre looking at is all you need.
     
  15. jaracer
    Joined: Oct 4, 2008
    Posts: 2,419

    jaracer
    Member

    You must be bottoming the lifter when you think you are at zero lash. I think you are a bit aggressive coming to zero lash. The lifter should be at the top of its travel when you achieve zero lash.
     
  16. getow
    Joined: May 9, 2016
    Posts: 305

    getow
    Member

    From what youre sayin, id try to get someone atad bit more familiar to give ya 1st hand explanation with a wrench in theyre hand while explaining what exactly they are doing and exactly what they are looking at while doing it. If you dont know when da valve is closed by turning da crank by hand and looking at valve that is being adjusted, then there is no way to know what your doing. And unfortunately, no way to get them adjusted properly.
     
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  17. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 30,778

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    turn until number 1 is up and firing (timing mark lined up and rotor pointing to the number 1 terminal on the cap). then adjust numbers 1,2,5 and 7 intake and 1,3,4 and 8 exhaust . turn to zero lash (up and down movement on the pushrod not spinning) and then 1/2 a turn tighter. Now turn the engine 1 more revolution and adjust 3,4,6 and 8 intake and 2,5,6 and 7 exhaust
     
  18. jaw22w
    Joined: Mar 2, 2013
    Posts: 1,671

    jaw22w
    Member
    from Indiana

    To the OP. The first thing I see wrong with your method is spinning the pushrod to determine zero lash. This usually leads to too tight of an adjustment and hold the valve open. Some pushrods spin really easy and its too tight by the time it stop spinning.Try jiggling the rod up and down. I jiggle the rocker up and down while tightening. YOu can feel the gap going away



    I tried using the EOIC method a long time ago. I never was comfortable with...how much exhaust opening, or how much the intake should be closed. I couldn't visualize the lifter being on the base circle. Probably 50 years ago. I came up with my own method. Never saw anybody else use it. Based on the fact that #1 and #6 are at TDC at the same time (at least on a SBC), #6 just fires 180 out. When the #6 intake valve is at full lift #1 intake is on the base circle, no question. Same for the exhaust. Run through the firing order a quarter turn at a time, 2 revolutions. Has worked for me on stock 265's to 900 HP sprint engines. I may be a little more anal about setting my valves than most, but I like to be sure in my mind that the lifter is on the base circle when I set it.
    I haven't set the valves in a running engine since I figured this out. I remember doing it as a kid, though. What a fucking mess.
     
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  19. getow
    Joined: May 9, 2016
    Posts: 305

    getow
    Member

    What jaracer is saying. The lifter should be relaxed. No stress on da rod. Wiggle or spin da rod, while adjusting. Note.... thè lifter needs to be on da low side of the cam lobe, which in turn would be a closed valve. As you turn da adjuster and spinning the rod simultaneously, you will feel da rod, "tighten". When da rod just starts to snug, but doesnt affect the lifter. That is 0 lash. Then turn in ½ turn more. And lock down.
     
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  20. 61SuperMonza
    Joined: Nov 16, 2020
    Posts: 489

    61SuperMonza
    Member

    Yup, you can't feel any compression because there isn't any. The valves are saying open all the time.
    You need to start over. Find #1 TDC on the compression stroke. Once you do that use the same video and your golden. I use 3/8 of a turn pre load.
     
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  21. 61SuperMonza
    Joined: Nov 16, 2020
    Posts: 489

    61SuperMonza
    Member

    If your having a hard time finding TDC just mark your dizzy where the 1 plug is. If your rotor is pointing toward 1 cylinder you are one the compression stroke.
     
  22. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 14,799

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Moriarity 16 minutes ago has it correct. I’ve done every stocker this way since I read it in a 1957 Motors Manual in 1960. Never fails as long as your rockers, balls, and lock nuts are good.
     
  23. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 30,778

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    yup that is the way I was taught in vo tech back in the 70's and I have done it that way ever since
     
  24. RaginPin3Appl3
    Joined: Mar 31, 2016
    Posts: 1,172

    RaginPin3Appl3
    Member

    Alright, that does make sense to me. However the problem I run into with that method is I don’t have a distributor in it, and am not sure how exactly to get to TDC to put the distributor in properly because the valves aren’t lashed. Viscous circle. How can I be sure I’m at TDC #1 with no distributor rotor, and the rockers just sitting in place?
     
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  25. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 30,778

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    You’re going to have to loosen the rocker arms until you get compression back on #1 and crank it over with your finger in the plug hole. When you feel compression stop cranking with the starter and turn by hand until the timing marks are lined up. Then drop in the distributor pointing the rotor at the number 1 terminal of the cap
     
  26. RaginPin3Appl3
    Joined: Mar 31, 2016
    Posts: 1,172

    RaginPin3Appl3
    Member

    Got it. I'll try again when it's not 30 degrees out! ;)
     
    Moriarity likes this.
  27. A couple other questions, here. Is this a stock or mostly stock 283? Has it been running and you know there isn't something else to be concerned with (stuck valve, gummed up rings, bad timing chain)? If the motor is sound and you can get it started, get it fired up and then go valve to valve and tighten it down until it stops clattering and then go another 3/4 turn. It's messy but you will know exactly where those valves are set.
    Just my 2 cents worth.
     
  28. Dick Stevens
    Joined: Aug 7, 2012
    Posts: 3,710

    Dick Stevens
    Member

    Listen to Moriarity, he is the guy giving you the best advice. After you get the distributor installed and with the rotor lined up pointing toward #1 cylinder, check that the plug wiring is right with the #1 plug wire lined up with the rotor, firing order is 18436572 and the distributor turns clockwise.
     
  29. triumph 1
    Joined: Feb 9, 2011
    Posts: 591

    triumph 1
    Member

    You can watch the valves as you rotate the engine. Clockwise from the front. (You might have to loosen yours some)After the intake valve closes & the piston is traveling up; that is the compression stroke on the cylinder. When the piston reaches the top (you can use a wood skewer or similar through the spark plug hole) that is TDC
    Not exact but close enough to adjust valves & drop the distributor.


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
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  30. RaginPin3Appl3
    Joined: Mar 31, 2016
    Posts: 1,172

    RaginPin3Appl3
    Member

    Alright, I think I’ve got it right, but a quick question, how can I be sure I’m not 180 off? If I hold my finger over the #1 hole and turn the motor over, I feel pressure every revolution, or even when it’s the exhaust stroke, not just the compression stroke. I’m assuming that’s normal and I should just watch until the intake rod drops down, that means the valve is closed, and at that point, the timing marks should be close, so drop in the distributor once they line up, just after that rod drops down and the valve is closed?
     

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