Hot Rods 3 spd manual, what the he !! am I

blockhead555 · Sep 1, 2019

wow! Awesome info. Thanks. I wonder what the 83mm is about? Thats about 3.25 inch I think. The driven gears maybe?
Its a shame there is all these little references in charts, and manuals, but nothing that flat out states what its actual name is, application, dates of manufacture etc....

I'd bet this one still works, but I would like to rebuild it. Sadly I would never tear it down unless I was sure I could get parts....

//edit// Found it ----> The heavy-duty 3-speed (RPO M13 in 67-68, or MC1 in 69)

j-jock · Sep 1, 2019

Regarding my previous posting, I forgot to add that the 67 Chev was ordered with the 396. That was why I considered it so odd that it came with the 3 speed transmission.
Bob

squirrel · Sep 1, 2019

The 83mm refers to the center to center distance from the main shaft to the countershaft.

Tickety Boo · Mar 2, 2020

Thank you for the info, picked this up at a swap meet and it has the same casting number as blockhead555

Any one know what transmissions can be used for a donor for the speedometer drive.
Norb

Randall Landfair · Oct 30, 2020

blockhead555 said: ↑

Hi, Im new here, and I know this is an old thread, but one that hasnt been fully explained, so I thought I may be able to shed some light on this transmission. This post may be a bit long, and much of my information is from about 16 hours of internet research, although I do have years exp turning wrenches.

First I want to clear up a misconception I had when growing up. I always thought 'muncie' was a company that made some badass transmissions. AFAIK 'muncie' refers to GM's plant in muncie Indiana, while 'Saginaw refers to GM's plant in Saginaw Michigan. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Most people reading probably already know this. I just post this for those that dont, or my own clairification. 'muncie' were generally used for heavy duty, and performance applications, while 'saginaw' were typically light duty, or low horsepower applications. Again please correct me if I'm wrong. Both of these were manufactured by General Motors Corporation.

Now, on to this transmission. Off my property I bought 5 years ago I pulled a 1969 Carry All (Suburban) Panel Van. Someone at sometime had rodded it a little. street mostly, minor mods.

Anyway, it has what I believe to be stock transmission identical to the original posters. Thinking it may be worth some money, I began to ID it. well that has been a REAL chore, but this is what I found. I believe this is a muncie HD (heavy duty), not a saginaw. The side cover has 7 bolt holes, but saginaw has one bolt hole top center, while this trans has two bolt holes top offset center. The side cover also has a bump below the horizontal ridge toward the rear shift linkage, saginaw do not. Funny thing is I have noticed the tail piece looks alot like saginaw.

Most people online distinguish between 'muncie' and 'saginaw' in that 'muncie' has an aluminum case, and saginaw are cast iron. In fact there are several 'muncie' transmissions that have cast iron cases. There is alot of misinformation on the internet. I dont think its intentional, but one must disseminate truth from myth, or partial information.

'Muncie' did in fact make a heavy duty 3 speed transmission from about 69-73 (im guessing at dates) They are called (I think) SM330 HD (351) Again, I'm looking for clarification if anyone has any. And last night I found out why so very little info is around on these. This is an excerpt from a forum post, this forum if im not mistaken, and explains why few people would have heard of these transmissions:

"Beginning about 1969 GM made a heavy duty 3 speed designated as SM330. It has a 7 bolt side cover similar to the Saginaw, but instead of a single bolt at the top center of the cover, it has a bolt on either side of center. This is a very strong 3 speed which was the base trans supplied behind a BB if you didn't order a 4 speed or automatic. In trucks, it may have been an upgrade option with any of the smaller engines, like the earlier Warner T-89."

Well no wonder they are rare! Who the F' didnt want want a 4-speed or an automatic in 69!?! This tranny also features a 5 bolt-to-bell-housing, which distinguishes it from a 'saginaw' transmission. I believe it is designed to go on a General Motors BB 756 bell-housing or similar. I have not seen any small block bell housing with 5 bolt pattern, but mounts to 4 bolt housing fine without the top bolt.

Also if you open the side cover and compare these to a 'muncie', and 'saginaw' they more closely resemble 'muncie' innards.

So here are my GUESSES based on many hours of internet research:

Sometime in the (late?) 60's, GM moved away from Borg-Warner (temporarily) because they couldnt handle the power from certain engines, and used 'muncies' high torque/heavy duty application instead. 4-speeds were HOT, and automatics were beginig to shine due to newer technology; however there were certain situations where a 3-speed was needed/desired, and GM wanted to offer it as an option lest someone buy a different brand just because they wanted a 3-speed trans. Enter the SM330 HD, these were option only I think, in that you actually had to say I want this vehicle, but I want it with a 3-speed manual, and if the application was over xxx horsepower, or high torque etc. then this was the factory solution. If it was a low horsepower/torque, you probably would have gotten a 'saginaw' 3-speed. Its no wonder few people have heard of these, or that there is so little information about them.

I am very interested in any information anyone could provide. especially a repair manual! or exploded diagram. I have never rebuilt a manual, but I may make this one my first. I will upload some pics of my trans.

Note: The trans is UPSIDE DOWN in several pics. (My bench is messy, I know *SIGH*)

Disclaimer: I am here to learn, not argue. I could be wrong, and probably am...
Click to expand...

Randall Landfair · Nov 21, 2020

blockhead555 said: ↑

Hi, Im new here, and I know this is an old thread, but one that hasnt been fully explained, so I thought I may be able to shed some light on this transmission. This post may be a bit long, and much of my information is from about 16 hours of internet research, although I do have years exp turning wrenches.

First I want to clear up a misconception I had when growing up. I always thought 'muncie' was a company that made some badass transmissions. AFAIK 'muncie' refers to GM's plant in muncie Indiana, while 'Saginaw refers to GM's plant in Saginaw Michigan. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Most people reading probably already know this. I just post this for those that dont, or my own clairification. 'muncie' were generally used for heavy duty, and performance applications, while 'saginaw' were typically light duty, or low horsepower applications. Again please correct me if I'm wrong. Both of these were manufactured by General Motors Corporation.

Now, on to this transmission. Off my property I bought 5 years ago I pulled a 1969 Carry All (Suburban) Panel Van. Someone at sometime had rodded it a little. street mostly, minor mods.

Anyway, it has what I believe to be stock transmission identical to the original posters. Thinking it may be worth some money, I began to ID it. well that has been a REAL chore, but this is what I found. I believe this is a muncie HD (heavy duty), not a saginaw. The side cover has 7 bolt holes, but saginaw has one bolt hole top center, while this trans has two bolt holes top offset center. The side cover also has a bump below the horizontal ridge toward the rear shift linkage, saginaw do not. Funny thing is I have noticed the tail piece looks alot like saginaw.

Most people online distinguish between 'muncie' and 'saginaw' in that 'muncie' has an aluminum case, and saginaw are cast iron. In fact there are several 'muncie' transmissions that have cast iron cases. There is alot of misinformation on the internet. I dont think its intentional, but one must disseminate truth from myth, or partial information.

'Muncie' did in fact make a heavy duty 3 speed transmission from about 69-73 (im guessing at dates) They are called (I think) SM330 HD (351) Again, I'm looking for clarification if anyone has any. And last night I found out why so very little info is around on these. This is an excerpt from a forum post, this forum if im not mistaken, and explains why few people would have heard of these transmissions:

"Beginning about 1969 GM made a heavy duty 3 speed designated as SM330. It has a 7 bolt side cover similar to the Saginaw, but instead of a single bolt at the top center of the cover, it has a bolt on either side of center. This is a very strong 3 speed which was the base trans supplied behind a BB if you didn't order a 4 speed or automatic. In trucks, it may have been an upgrade option with any of the smaller engines, like the earlier Warner T-89."

Well no wonder they are rare! Who the F' didnt want want a 4-speed or an automatic in 69!?! This tranny also features a 5 bolt-to-bell-housing, which distinguishes it from a 'saginaw' transmission. I believe it is designed to go on a General Motors BB 756 bell-housing or similar. I have not seen any small block bell housing with 5 bolt pattern, but mounts to 4 bolt housing fine without the top bolt.

Also if you open the side cover and compare these to a 'muncie', and 'saginaw' they more closely resemble 'muncie' innards.

So here are my GUESSES based on many hours of internet research:

Sometime in the (late?) 60's, GM moved away from Borg-Warner (temporarily) because they couldnt handle the power from certain engines, and used 'muncies' high torque/heavy duty application instead. 4-speeds were HOT, and automatics were beginig to shine due to newer technology; however there were certain situations where a 3-speed was needed/desired, and GM wanted to offer it as an option lest someone buy a different brand just because they wanted a 3-speed trans. Enter the SM330 HD, these were option only I think, in that you actually had to say I want this vehicle, but I want it with a 3-speed manual, and if the application was over xxx horsepower, or high torque etc. then this was the factory solution. If it was a low horsepower/torque, you probably would have gotten a 'saginaw' 3-speed. Its no wonder few people have heard of these, or that there is so little information about them.

I am very interested in any information anyone could provide. especially a repair manual! or exploded diagram. I have never rebuilt a manual, but I may make this one my first. I will upload some pics of my trans.

Note: The trans is UPSIDE DOWN in several pics. (My bench is messy, I know *SIGH*)

Disclaimer: I am here to learn, not argue. I could be wrong, and probably am...
Click to expand...

Mimilan · Nov 21, 2020

MikieOne said: ↑

Does anybody out there know where I can look up Saginaw 3 spd manual transmissions for what they are? What I'm getting at is I would like to know where to find the trans identifying names and or pictures like (M26/M27) or (M10/M13) or (MC1) or (M62/M64) and even I think (MC318/MC319) and the likes. Just trying to get a better idea of them and if I need parts for them what to give for information to the parts guy/gal.
I hear people talk about RPO codes, I know that is Regular Production Order/Options giving what the Vehicles came equipped with and then I have heard people from other forums say there RPO code for there trans is XXXX. Just trying to understand these trans better.
Maybe I should say how does one understand these Saginaw trans's for what they are?

Thanks for any help or Links given.
Click to expand...

https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/vintage-chevy-rpo-codes

Speed Gems · Nov 21, 2020

Andy said: ↑

Pictures would help.
Click to expand...

MikieOne said: ↑

I don't have all the 3 spd Saginaw's that GM made in picture form!
I'm after information with identification RPO codes or there common industry names and the likes.
How many 3 speed Saginaw's did GM make, maybe that question will get something started. Inquiring minds would like to know. LOL
Click to expand...

I think he means pictures of YOUR transition. A lot of guys here are very good at identifying what you have just by looking at pictures.

Randall Landfair · Nov 21, 2020

Mimilan said: ↑

https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/vintage-chevy-rpo-codes
Click to expand...

This is possibly best answer to your question! Buy Alan Colvins book on gm numbers I'm going to man up as soon as momma says it's okay! LOL!

Randall Landfair · Nov 21, 2020

blockhead555 said: ↑

Hi, Im new here, and I know this is an old thread, but one that hasnt been fully explained, so I thought I may be able to shed some light on this transmission. This post may be a bit long, and much of my information is from about 16 hours of internet research, although I do have years exp turning wrenches.

First I want to clear up a misconception I had when growing up. I always thought 'muncie' was a company that made some badass transmissions. AFAIK 'muncie' refers to GM's plant in muncie Indiana, while 'Saginaw refers to GM's plant in Saginaw Michigan. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Most people reading probably already know this. I just post this for those that dont, or my own clairification. 'muncie' were generally used for heavy duty, and performance applications, while 'saginaw' were typically light duty, or low horsepower applications. Again please correct me if I'm wrong. Both of these were manufactured by General Motors Corporation.

Now, on to this transmission. Off my property I bought 5 years ago I pulled a 1969 Carry All (Suburban) Panel Van. Someone at sometime had rodded it a little. street mostly, minor mods.

Anyway, it has what I believe to be stock transmission identical to the original posters. Thinking it may be worth some money, I began to ID it. well that has been a REAL chore, but this is what I found. I believe this is a muncie HD (heavy duty), not a saginaw. The side cover has 7 bolt holes, but saginaw has one bolt hole top center, while this trans has two bolt holes top offset center. The side cover also has a bump below the horizontal ridge toward the rear shift linkage, saginaw do not. Funny thing is I have noticed the tail piece looks alot like saginaw.

Most people online distinguish between 'muncie' and 'saginaw' in that 'muncie' has an aluminum case, and saginaw are cast iron. In fact there are several 'muncie' transmissions that have cast iron cases. There is alot of misinformation on the internet. I dont think its intentional, but one must disseminate truth from myth, or partial information.

'Muncie' did in fact make a heavy duty 3 speed transmission from about 69-73 (im guessing at dates) They are called (I think) SM330 HD (351) Again, I'm looking for clarification if anyone has any. And last night I found out why so very little info is around on these. This is an excerpt from a forum post, this forum if im not mistaken, and explains why few people would have heard of these transmissions:

"Beginning about 1969 GM made a heavy duty 3 speed designated as SM330. It has a 7 bolt side cover similar to the Saginaw, but instead of a single bolt at the top center of the cover, it has a bolt on either side of center. This is a very strong 3 speed which was the base trans supplied behind a BB if you didn't order a 4 speed or automatic. In trucks, it may have been an upgrade option with any of the smaller engines, like the earlier Warner T-89."

Well no wonder they are rare! Who the F' didnt want want a 4-speed or an automatic in 69!?! This tranny also features a 5 bolt-to-bell-housing, which distinguishes it from a 'saginaw' transmission. I believe it is designed to go on a General Motors BB 756 bell-housing or similar. I have not seen any small block bell housing with 5 bolt pattern, but mounts to 4 bolt housing fine without the top bolt.

Also if you open the side cover and compare these to a 'muncie', and 'saginaw' they more closely resemble 'muncie' innards.

So here are my GUESSES based on many hours of internet research:

Sometime in the (late?) 60's, GM moved away from Borg-Warner (temporarily) because they couldnt handle the power from certain engines, and used 'muncies' high torque/heavy duty application instead. 4-speeds were HOT, and automatics were beginig to shine due to newer technology; however there were certain situations where a 3-speed was needed/desired, and GM wanted to offer it as an option lest someone buy a different brand just because they wanted a 3-speed trans. Enter the SM330 HD, these were option only I think, in that you actually had to say I want this vehicle, but I want it with a 3-speed manual, and if the application was over xxx horsepower, or high torque etc. then this was the factory solution. If it was a low horsepower/torque, you probably would have gotten a 'saginaw' 3-speed. Its no wonder few people have heard of these, or that there is so little information about them.

I am very interested in any information anyone could provide. especially a repair manual! or exploded diagram. I have never rebuilt a manual, but I may make this one my first. I will upload some pics of my trans.

Note: The trans is UPSIDE DOWN in several pics. (My bench is messy, I know *SIGH*)

Disclaimer: I am here to learn, not argue. I could be wrong, and probably am...
Click to expand...

Randall Landfair · Nov 21, 2020

If you don't mind what number do you have on your tail piece mine is 3968035

Randall Landfair · Nov 21, 2020

Tickety Boo said: ↑

Thank you for the info, picked this up at a swap meet and it has the same casting number as blockhead555

Any one know what transmissions can be used for a donor for the speedometer drive.
Norb

View attachment 4595193 View attachment 4595194
Click to expand...

your date code on the side cover is August 29 1974 so as long as the tailhousing number numbers match I think you have a donor

Log in or Sign up

Hot Rods 3 spd manual, what the he !! am I

blockhead555

j-jock
Member

from Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

squirrel
Member

from Sierra Vista AZ

Tickety Boo
Member

from Wisconsin

Randall Landfair

Randall Landfair

Attached Files:

IMG_20201120_124000.jpg

IMG_20201120_090120.jpg

Mimilan
Member

from Tauranga ,New Zealand

Speed Gems
Member

from St. cloud, Minnesota

Randall Landfair

Randall Landfair

Randall Landfair

Randall Landfair

Share This Page

Archive

Atomic Industry

Support

Subscribe

Hot Rods 3 spd manual, what the he !! am I

j-jock Member from Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

squirrel Member from Sierra Vista AZ

Tickety Boo Member from Wisconsin

Attached Files:

Mimilan Member from Tauranga ,New Zealand

Speed Gems Member from St. cloud, Minnesota

Share This Page

Useful Searches

Archive

Atomic Industry

Support

Subscribe

j-jock
Member

from Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

squirrel
Member

from Sierra Vista AZ

Tickety Boo
Member

from Wisconsin

Mimilan
Member

from Tauranga ,New Zealand

Speed Gems
Member

from St. cloud, Minnesota