Hot Rods Braized body panel questions

Bought 2 original quarter panels . Looks like at one time someone patched in well well panels (not the inner ones) outer . There is a ridge line where it was braized. Job looks decent. What do I need to know working the panels? Was this an old school method ? Txs

 

Lot of folks who didn't weld would braze in panels. Many, many Model A roofs were filled with sheet metal panels brazed in.

 

Just make sure all the flux from the brazing is cleaned off...

 

I don't know but sounds delicious

 

brazing was used before 110 volt mig welders became common, it now a outdated process. the old braze material must be cleaned all the way off or it wii contaminate the new weld. it you can cut off the old brazed area that would be best

 

Shops use Silicon Bronze mig brazing on modern light sheet metal.Less heat.

 

No kidding, but I don't think they get it...haha....

 

I started brazing panels in in the mid 60's , a grinder or a wire wheel & an ice pick was what was available for clean up . I honestly don't remember having any problem with filler or primer lifting. Hard to believe I've been that lucky for that long ...

 

It seems to react with the filler over time , swelling the filler out. If you dig in you will see there is dark oily looking reaction to the filler

 

The panels I brazed in in '86 in my old truck & the ones in '95 in my newer truck aren't visible ?? I don't know what to tell you ...

 

Learn to gas weld 12 years before I ever laid hands on a mig or a tig . That was almost 50 years ago, they where lap welds done with brazing rod and coat hangers. Ground down with a 36 grit sanding disc in a electric drill followed by a wire brush in the same drill. Washed down with thinner and metal etched. Bondo and primer. Never had an issue. Learned to lead seems later on and the old guys that taught me said baking soda and water to neutralize the acid. It has always been about cleaning and prep. Epoxy primer is also your Friend. Larry

 

Was done alot into the 70's and very early 80's. Then Panel Spots came into vogue for panel replacement (spot welds along the overlapped edges) until mig and tig welders came todays norm.

 

With onions, celery and carrots

 

Pics?

 

I brazed in some small rust out spots around the rear window of my Camaro years back , I was told that it would have less chance of warping due to less heat
So I did it, ground it down put a light skim of filler , then prepared the car ,which had been stripped to bare metal, for epoxy primer and primed it...all went and looked good..
about 3 weeks went by and I noticed bumps forming where I had brazed, I ground it all back down in the bad spots then applied dura-glass filler and repreped and primed and it held .
Sold the car 10 years later , still wearing the epoxy primer, and there was no problems anywhere on the car.

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I became a Body Shop employee at the Fisher Body Lansing Plant (Oldsmobile) in 1968.
Soon became a experienced brazing man.
Every Oldsmobile that came down the assembly line was brazed at 5 to 7 locations on each side of the vehicle, the exterior rocker panel joints, corners of the roof panel, and the ending peaks of the rear quarters, where without the heat annealing and strength imparted by the brazing process, the sheet metal was inclined to split. (many were already split in stamping, and brazing was the repair method.)
Those days we were working two and three shifts daily producing upwards of 2500 bodies a day. So I did the brazing on tens of thousands of B and C bodied Oldsmobile's the 88's & 98's
I still own a Studebaker that I brazed the floor pans into back in the 70's.
We discontinued brazing (and leaded seams) once vinyl roofs became popular, as a quick smear of plastic body filler required little worker skill or finishing as it was a hidden (roof rot time bomb) behind the vinyl.
But this was much quicker, cheaper, and far more profitable (buyers had to PAY extra for that mandatory 'optional' vinyl roof) and safer for us workers as we were no longer breathing in the toxic fumes and poisonous lead dust produced by production brazing, leading and grinding.
By some miracle I am still here to tell the tale, too many of my old co-workers are not.

 

I'd say that up into the lat 70's a lot of guys used brass to do body work for the reason Rudestude mentioned, due to the lower heat required you ran a far lower chance of warping the metal and you ran less chance of burning holes in the metal. I used a ton of wire coat hangers rather than brass in the mid 70's when I first did the 48. I got a hanger with every clean uniform at work and they collected pretty fast. I had used brass on a T bucket body I was building out of pieces though as It was easier to fill some of the holes with it. If that body is still around Central Texas it is a 30 Ford Cowl with an early 20's Dodge touring back part with sheet metal in between and no sign of doors.

I'd say the thing here is that if you are 65 or older it isn't a big deal because it is what was done back in the day, if you are 50 or younger it may be cause for panic because OMG you heard horror stories about it down at the spit and whittle club.

The simple truth is that most of us now have a mig or tig at home to do the welding on sheet metal that was only done with a torch up into the 70's in mostcases as few shop had mig welders and car building wise only a few shops had "Heli-arc welders or Tig welders Those usually building serious race cars.

 

Must be OK Rolls Royce to this day brazes the quarter sail panels on ALL of them and nobody is picker than Rolls owners.

 

To help the brass work last, I either epoxy it first, before using plastic filler, or lead it in. Or you could just "tin" the brazed area, to coat it, then fill it. But I have brazed bodywork on my 55 Olds that is over 35 years old, and no problems.

 

I've got an OT car with some brass repairs, decided to try to mig a patch near it, and it was like the 4th of July. I don't remember the specifics but IIRC brass boils at a lower temperature than mig achieves.

 

Ya Mr48Chev...you hit it when you talk about the age thing, being 59 myself my first nose and deck job I did was on a 54 Ford I had.
I went to my friend's place, he was and still is a old body man , so I figured I would ask him to help me out, so he tells me to show up at his shop the next morning and bring some coat hangers, what, just bring them he says .
I show up with a couple , then he sends me down to his barn telling me to grab some bailing wire , he did one hole and turned me loose and I did the rest . Then he hands me a bucket of water and a rag grabs the torch and showed me how to shrink the metal it all came out great .
I have friend's of mine that have been brought up on wire machines and think that I'm full of crap when I tell them that.
Same guy showed me how to pound out dents also ...hands me a old ball tip hammer and a flat river rock and showed me a couple hits and I took over , I asked thats how you do all your work ...oh hell no then he opens up a cabinet full of real body tools and says you learn how to work the metal with that stuff then you can use these.

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Since I had my heart issue and got a super hi-tech ICD with I cannot use a mug welder any more. I bought a small gas torch unit and I am thinking of doing sheet metal with that. I haven't tried yet but I hope this thread will give me some knowledge and encouragement.

 

I must note here that the brazing process was the final welding operation performed at the exit of bodies from the Arc Booth, a heavily ventilated, steel enclosed section of the assembly line.
All of on-line production welding that was performed within the Welding Booth was by performed by Mig or brazing. Before a body reached the brazing area it had passed through about 6 mig welding stations. Brazing was not employed due to any lack of mig welders.
The only gas welding that (might) occur, would have involved a vehicle whose panels were so severely damaged or defective as requiring being removed from the production line for panel replacement.
Very acquainted with this fact as my very first employment at Fisher Body was the responsibility of removing these damaged bodies from the assembly line, and controlling the line to eventually close up the gap. A lot of things could go wrong (and did.)
It was a nightmare responsibility as a small error could result in the assembly line shutting down for hours. A green new hire, I was put into the position of having to deal with the wrath of the Plant Foreman almost daily. Without the Union I wouldn't have lased a month. I retired after 30 years.

 

My thought too.

 

Just a thought: before the advent of aluminum and then composite bicycle frames, all of the best frames were built with double butted chrome moly tubing, and were exclusively brazed. Those joints withstood a lot of stress. Also a lot of British sports and racing cars, including the Fergusson 4wd Novi car frame were brazed. So don't worry about strength.

 

Another thing that I would stress about brazing with brass, is that such joints when well performed will long outlast body sheet metal so joined.
Lapped steel joints as commonly employed in floor pans are susceptible to moisture entering by capillary action or from condensation trapped in these lap joints.
A well brazed joint in lapped steel panels leaves no voids for water, or condensation to form.
Even fully exposed, the brazed joint will remain strong and uncorroded even after the rest of the un-brazed steel metal returns to iron oxide dust.
With brazed floor pan laps, the floor pan is made both stronger and more moisture resistant.
When brazing such joints I keep the overlap tight and to 1/2" or less overlap to assure that capillary action fills the entire joint.
Paint the rest of the floor pan and keep standing water and wet carpeting off of it and it will last for generations.

 

If the are not braze is cracked, broken, or any other issues I wouldn't worry about it.
It's not the preferred method of panel replacement it was very common at one point even Bill Hines brazed panels.

I have spilt several six cylinder Chevy manifolds using braze and they are still in use.

BSA or Triumph brazed their race motorcycle frames in the early days, I wouldn't ride one but I also never heard of one breaking.

 

Right, but bikes used lugs so they were brazing tubes into sockets. Not a fair comparison.

 

I don't advocate brazing for everything. I learned gas cutting and welding on our rural farm when I was 15, and soon became proficient at 'hammer welding' and metal working panels on our various old family clunkers with little or no filler material.
At 18 I joined the welding dept. at Fisher Body Division where over the years I became experienced in every type of welding process the plant employed.
Have 4 arc welders and 3 MIGs as well as two OA set-ups and various torches including a Henrob. Thus I am well equipped to use whichever process best suits the job. For lapped floor pan joints I use brass. Exterior panels that require metal finishing I butt join flush and tack in place with the MIG, and finish weld with gas.
Frames and critical mounts are handled with the big stick welders.

 

Actually there were quite a few racing bikes built lugless, as even in bicycling weight is important. Serotta here in Saratoga Springs built a number of frames that way. And regarding the method they were still mitered as perfectly as was possible, and then fillet brazed.