Will a Mopar 440 crank bolt in a 400 ?? I'm trying to figure out how to warm up the 400 a little. Any & alll info appreciated.
Yes it will, I don't know all the details, but you end up with 452 cu. in. One of the hot tickets in Mopar land.
From around the web... Mopar 451. The motor that SHOULD be... The 451 is arguably the best BB Mopar engine combination available. The 451, which is made by dropping a 440 crank into a 400 block, has almost perfect design parameters. Deck Height: The 400 block, with a deck height of 9.980 is perfect for a 3.75 stroke since a 1.80 rod ratio yields a nice light compression height of 1.355. The 440 block is really too tall for a motor of less than 500 cubic inches since its deck height of 10.72 requires a piston which has a compression height of 2.077 to make a zero deck. This means that 451 has a typical piston weight of around 550 grams instead of 800+ for the 440. BTW, the BBC has a deck height of 9.80 for the regular block and 10.2 for the "tall block". That means that the 440 is over 0.50 taller than the special Chevy tall block. The 400 block is right in between the two BBC's. The lower deck height of the 400 means less block weight. It also means the engine fits into tight engine compartments easier. It also means that the pushrods are shorter which in turn makes them lighter and more rigid. A complete 451 can weigh as much as 40 pounds less than a similiar 440 due to these differences. R/S ratio: Okay the debate still rages but for all practical purposes, longer rods are better since they reduce side loading on the cylinder walls. A ratio of around 1.80 seems to be a decent compromise between rod length, strength, weight, etc. The 454 BBC has a stock ratio of 1.53:1 and those motors run okay. 1.80:1 is better but I'm not sure that 2:1 is worth paying extra for. The 451 allows for a 1.80:1 ratio with stock length 440 rods and it still leaves just enough room for a nice, lightweight, and strong piston. B/S ratio: Bigger bore to stroke ratios tend to be good up to a point since they reduce the valve shrouding (too big on the bores and the combustion process falters). The 400 block has a std bore of 4.340 so it has the largest stock bore size. The 440 bore is 4.320 at std so that means it cannot be bored as large as a 400. A bore of 4.375 is a very nice bore size since rings are readily available. That is a 0.035 over 400 but it would be a 0.055 over 440. Less overbore means more strength and the possibility of additonal overbores. 4.375/3.75 is 1.17 which is pretty good. Better than the 1.06 of a 454 BBC but not as nice as the 1.33 of a 302. Rotating weight: As mentioned above, the lower deck height allows for a more compact piston which in turn reduces the piston weight significantly. The longer 440 rod and longer stroke of the 440 crank also means that a 451 has lighter pistons than a stock 400. The typical piston/pin/rod assembly in a 400 weighs 1930 grams. The same assembly for a 451 using stock 440 rods weighs 1630 grams. (This can be made even lighter by using 0.990 pins) The reduction of 300 grams per cylinder means a weight reduction of 2400 grams, or 5.3 pounds from the assembly. An additional amount must be taken off of the crank counterweights to balance the motor. This amount is 1060 grams or 2.33 pounds for the above configuration. That means that the 451 rotating assembly is 7.6 pounds lighter than a 400. Pretty dramatic results when you mash on the loud petal from that kind of weight reduction. This is using fairly common parts. The 451 accomodates itself to more exotic parts due to the piston dimensions and rod lengths. That means you can save even more weight easier on a 451 than on a 400 or 440. Easy to build: The parts are easy to come by since 400 blocks are quite common (and not very well liked so they tend to be cheap), 440 cranks are easy to find in the aftermarket and not too bad swap meet stuff. Stock 440 rods work but Manley, C&A, Eagle, Crower, etc make rods also if you want/need high strength stuff. Several manufacturers produce off the shelf pistons to work with this combo so that is easy. The 440 crank needs to be turned down to the 383/400 main size and the counterweights need to be turned down to a diameter of 7.250 but that is easy crank shop stuff. The crank can have a full radii put on it so it actually turns out quite strong in the process. It is possible to bore out the mains on a 400 block to accept the stock 440 crank but that seems the hard way to go. You have to machine in the tabs to hold the bearings and then you are usually stuck with an undersize crank. Besides, you still have to send the crank to the machine shop to reduce the counterweights. And to argue from a technical standpoint, bigger bearings cost horsepower due to increased friction. Other close relations: The rod journals on the 440 crank can be turned down to BBC size of 2.200. This allows the stroke to increased or decreased by offset grinding. A max stroke of 3.90 is possible this way and that yields a 470 cubic inch motor. Manley is selling rods that make this combination work and it makes a really nice motor. The piston is even lighter since it is 0.075 shorter and so the rotating assembly weight drops again. Also, the piston pin is changed to a 0.990 pin in this combination and that drops the weight by another 30 or 40 grams per cylinder. The smaller bearing has less frictional loss and it allows for a physically smaller rod which means more camshaft clearance and more block clearance. (see how it all works out kind of cool?) This is a bit more money to build but it is still very reasonable. The Manley rods are $750 and the offset grinding is usually about $100 or so.
The '72 400 block is the best. If you turn down the mains it will fit then use some 440 rods and semi custom Ross pistons and some ported n polished 906 440 heads you will have a low deck super torquey sleeper motor you can get about 500hp outta...you end up with 451cubes. Ask me how I know...
Oh and don't forget to mill the heads a little to bring compression up. I believe mine ended up with 10.1:1 and still runs well on high octane pump gas.
Yes, The question is why? If you have a 440 to steal the crank from I would do the 440 and have many times. The 400 has smaller main journals and the crank has to be reduced in size to that size to fit. Also there is not much room for piston skirts if you are doing a inexpensive build and the counterweights must also be reduced in size to clear the block (or you can open up the 400 block the same as the 440 is with a few minutes of work with a 4.5 inch angle grinder.) I have done it both ways. What will you gain? very little . Both a 440 and a 451 will make similar power. The extra cubes is not real signifcant. Basically you have taken a 440, the least expensive V8 in the world to make power from and made it very expensive to make the same power. Yes the block is shorter and therefore lighter but if you gave up beer for a couple of weeks you could also reduce the weight in the car. Having said that I have built from a 400 a 460 ($1500 Econo big block Chrysler Power 97) a 455 , same deal with different pistons only 055 over instead of 060" , A 426 (stroked a steel 383 crank and made pistons from forged semi finished 440 units. (This was a very powerful engine ) and several 400 s of stock stroke including the power plant for the NASCAR RETURNS TO LEMANS Practice and driver traing car (72 REAl Dodge Charger. Not a tube framed facsimile) They have also been good engines. It is possible with iron heads and flat tappet cams (even a hydraulic)to exceed 500 HP with realtive ease and without breaking the bank. Engines will be very reliable. Speaking of Reliable my all time favourite is OLD RELIABLE build from the Book by the same name . $ for$ it is still a hard combo to beat. Horsepower is high mid 500ds. Torque is GROTESQUE and it will live forever with a bit of care. Don
The vast magority o all BB cranks I have seen are not drilled for a pilot bushing 400 440 and even good ol 383. Not to many Imperials or New Yorkers with a 4 speed I guess. We always train the local general machine shop on how to cure this. Not a particularily expensive deal. Very common on Chev engines too to have to machine for a pilot bushing. Last BBMOPAR one I had done was the NASCAR To LEMANS Crank. I also smoothed it and had it hardchromed which while expensive puts it in Bulletproof territory as far as bearing problems go. Very expensive but if something went wrong with it so would the servce call be. Don
NO. My '73 RoadRunner is a factory 400-4-speed. Any crank can be drilled for pilot bushing, or, use the Jeep pilot bearing that presses into the converter register. Verify that the input shaft does not bottom out before trying to bolt it all together. .
I think this 440 crank in a 400 thread just cleared up an old question for me. I found myself on the losing end a few times in stock eliminator to a supposed 383 that looked the same width as my 383, but had a lot deeper exhaust note. That car was protested and pumped up (p&g'd) to 452 cubic inches and disqualified. --- Steve ---
A B needs to be built with an eye to extra RPM so the volume of air pumped equals what a 440 or 452 pumps Since it has a short stroke (.100 less the an 350 SBC) it can do it all day long and in the 400 with a 4.340 stock bore which can go to 4.4 (.060 over ) on a good casting there are huge advantages. Sometimes in our hurry to get big cubes which we percieve always means more power (taint necessarily so) we kill the very thing that made these engines so good. There is always a trade off or as I say a bill to be paid. My customer has run our little 426 (400) monster against an Indy 511 or 528 (I dont remember which exactly) in similar weight cars (82 Mirada against 65 Ply factory style SS) and come out swapping wins heads up. (running within hundredths run to run) Maybe it was his lucky day. It was not a difficult build. The 440 or RB has its own strengths. GOBS of Torque and no need to exceed 6500 in a OR build. So loud you see the Camaro guys tapping their tachs in the staging lanes when you are warming up beside them cause they cant hear their little rats voice. I grin just remembering it. Don
Why play games with 40 year old parts made for a 400 hp aplication. The cheaper stronger bigger light way to go is to go buy a 4.15 stroker kit. By the time you spend the money to recondition your parts you still have 40 year old parts. The stroker kits can handle far more power. If a after market head is planned now or later you are already set. Before you spend your hard earned cash do some research. You may be surprised how this may work in your favor.
I'd imagine because they can racer-x Not everyone is into running out an buying the "Kit" even if it is easier. It might also be because they have a supply of cores to pick from and a machinist buddy who cuts them a deal.
What, exactly, is 'wrong' with 40 (or even 60) year old forged cranks? As Mr48 suggests, many folks may not be able to flash some plastic for a 'kit' that could be also be assembled in similar form at home, and some aren't 'racing' the new package. Perhaps they are looking for a reliable big inch B-RB that doesn't break the bank. Even when a new crank only runs about $1k it is still about $800 more than the oem piece. .
Contrary to the beliefs of many, cast iron and steel do not get old and frail. (people do) If I want stable parts I will buy good used, then inspect and refurbish. A used crank that had been reground won't mysteriously end up crooked.
I am tired, really tired of the $$$$$$ racers. Buy Buy Buy. What ever happened to made, built, designed, experimented. Like W Steve said chances are good and nowadays extremely good that 40 year old parts are far better than rice steel. The idea that performance can only be had by buying the latest and greatest is nonsense. In fact if that is the line of thinking then one must ask, why even bother with the car. Just buy the trophy. It was and still is for me the best part of it working through a set up trying , thinking, testing till you come up with a good sound combo. That bring great satisfaction. And as Steve already mentioned the parts can be reconned to be better then new. However if your a buyer and not a builder it is doubtful this means anything. Don
When I see these posts from young guys wanting to build some exotic thing I have to wonder if they have ever driven a 500HP car? Don just told you he has a video on how to build a reliable 500HP Chrysler 440 for $1500. How good do you want it? Do you really think 500HP is too slow, you have to spend an extra $5000 and get 600HP? Years ago I helped a young friend buy a 1959 Chrysler New Yorker. It had the stock 413 4 barrel, running on about 5 1/2 cylinders. He was thrilled to bits with the power it had. I had to stop and think a bit, the only cars he had ever driven were 4 cylinder sh*tboxes with souped up radios. I told him if he let me tune it up he would think he was driving a Rolls with an afterburner. Seriously, if you think a 500HP motor for $1500 is not fast enough for ordinary street use give your head a shake.
There is nothing wrong with 60 year old parts if you want 60 year old performance and reliability. I cut my teeth on stock parts. As far as buying horse power and then thinking you will automatically be a winner that b.s. my son at the age of 15 put together his first engine. It was built with a used stroker assembly. Picked it up for 500 bucks. He also picked up some indy heads for 750. There are good after market speed parts out there used. And it still takes the same skill lf not more to assemble a reliable package. Im just saying look at all the costs involved. The fact is a 906 or 452 or max wedge head will only make so much power. Its all about hp potential. This is based on air flow. Its fun to experiment i do it all the time. Now i do it mainly with newer better parts that make more power and in the long run do it cheaper. The parts available to the mopar guy now are incredible. By the time you disassemble hot tank deck cc port put in hardened seats put in new guides get new valves or cut old ones buy new springs set installed height cut spring seats get new retainers and locks and new seals and pressure test. Hope i didnt leave anything out. You are getting close to iron indys. If you want to keep it original do it. Just dont stear the readers out here down the wrong path that dont want to get beat by new mustangs and camaros and ricers. When current muscle cars can go into the 12s with very little work. Dont think your stocker that whent 14s or mid thirteens is going to be competitive. Money alone does not make a car fast. Proper selection of parts in every area of the car and a good chassis make a car faster than another. We as mopar guys are fortunate to have good parts from mother mopar. There is a reason during pro stocks early days the chevy drivers used 833s and danas. But all stock parts have limits. We as mopar guys now have cylinder heads that were unheard of not many years ago. This is why in higher hp cars you see failures of parts we never used to see. They are a game changer. They are also here to stay. As car guys most out there are constantly improving our rides year after year. There is nothing wrong with going the stroker route from the get go and adding on from there. We all build them differant this is how i do mine. As long as the lights in the front are clear and the ones in the back are red build it the way that makes you happy.
I think Don has it right, his combo definitely works - very consistent 11's in a heavy Charger back up his claims. I think most of the bench racers out there would have their minds blown by a stock rebuilt 440 magnum, let alone Don's monster. However, if you have 500 honest (real) horsepower and are bored with it, a stroker would be an improvement, if you have the head flow to make power with it.
All that cash for 11 cubes? Spend it on hop-up goodies for your 440, or even a 400. Non-stock cubes are the most expensive horses you can buy! Also, I'll take 50 year old American iron over brand-new Chinese crap any day.
It all depends on the purpose of the build. If you are backyard racing, go ahead and scab together a 440 and have at it. After all, even a blind squirrel occasionally finds an acorn. If you are serious about racing and winning (or at least being competitive), you are going to have to spend some money. For a pure street driven car, the 400 will be fine. Other than cubic inches, one of the benefits of going to a 451 is using an early 440 steel crankshaft, vs the 400 and late 440 externally balanced cast cranks. Or you could just install a 383 crank and keep the cubes the same.
The original questioner was trying to take a 400 and "warm it up a little". Presumably for a street driven car, not a top fuel dragster. For this application Don's Old Reliable would be a great choice, powerful, reliable and low in cost. You other guys have some good ideas too if you want to spend 5X the money for a 20% increase in power. It's all according to what you want.
Agreed, some folks tend to get carried away with all of the super whiz-bang catalogue stuff and forget about basic hotrodding. Yes, a stock 375 HP 440 will scare the crap outta 90% of the 'kids' that first drive one in just about any car and a similarly warmed up 400/451 is damned stout even with stock heads, intake and such. For those contemplating a 444-451 Keith Black has pistons on the shelf for use with either the 400 or the 440 con rod and that is really the only non-stock part that is needed. At this point the OP has not returned and I fear that 'we' have scared him off... .
Another old thread...but still it merits clarification. Y'all do know that Ma Mopar never put an iron crank into one of her big blocks, right? ALL Mopar big blocks have steel cranks. Some are cast....some are forged. None are iron. It may be a matter of semantics..but it's still the truth. All 440 cranks are "steel cranks."
Recently finished my 451 build. 73 400 block, ported and polished 440 heads with oversized valves, keith black pistons, mild cam, offenhauser low height dual quad manifold, dual 600cfm edelbrock carbs with progressive linkage and hei ignition. Ive got tha air fuel mixture around 12.5 most of the time. Still tweaking it. I wanted something that would fit between the frame rails and under the hood of my 32 three window coupe. It just fits and it's stupid fast for an old guy like me.
This will make you go Many years ago a friend of mine worked in the local Chrysler parts warehouse, apparently employees could take home "obsoleted" parts, he had all kinds of Mother Mopar parts in his shop attic, he had lots of other used non Mopar parts too. I had never been in the attic until one day I needed a Chevy driveshaft and went up there with him to look, in one corner was a BUNCH of Mopar 400 crankshafts, he also had carbs, exhaust manifolds, you name it, I don't know how that floor held all that weight. Then one day I went to get something TIG welded and he was loading it all in his truck, said time to clean house, he was taking it to the scrapper. Some time later I found out he had died from a brain tumor, RIP Bob.
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