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Hot Rods advice on how to change out a 4 bar front

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Barbarian, Oct 19, 2020.

  1. Barbarian
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 569

    Barbarian
    Member
    from New Jersey

    Diving into my first project and developing a plan for my ‘new to me’ chassis engineering A frame. It currently has a 4 bar setup and is the only thing I don’t love. Looking into how I’d go about converting it to a hairpin setup or split bone. I love the look of drilled split bones but would be equally happy with hairpins. Pics of my current setup attached

    Any recommendations on which route would be the less disruptive to my current setup? If I can save some money and reuse some of what I have great. If not then I’ll wait and do it so I get the look I want.

    I talked to Pete&Jakes and they said they can make hairpins that mount to the existing batwings. I’d have to cut the current frame bracket off and weld a new one on. The current bracket is 27” from the center of the axle. They could also make a custom set to fit the current bracket top hole but to me that sounds like they’d look awfully short.

    Open to all suggestions and help. Looking to learn.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Nothing wrong with a 4 bar but if you don't like it why not order as set of split bones from speedway that are designed to fit the axle and cut the rear attachment point off the frame and shorten it and weld it back on in the appropriate place, you can fill in the top hole. HRP

    [​IMG]
     
    mgtstumpy likes this.
  3. nothing wrong with a four "bar" front if you want it....your's, based on what I see has some concerns( old eyes, mind you}....not a big fan of single shear (frame mount in your pics)...also a lot of thread showing on those rod ends, too. Question concerning tubing material used for the application, is it aluminum? wall thickness is a concern along with grade. just thoughts concerning current set-up, easy enough to change over, however.
     
  4. KevKo
    Joined: Jun 25, 2009
    Posts: 926

    KevKo
    Member
    from Motown

    Pete and Jake's told you right. You will need new straight adjusters for the front of the hairpins, re-use the batwings. Might be able to re-use the rear adjuster. And as HRP said, you could shorten and re-use the frame brackets you already have. I agree with thintin, too much thread showing on the adjusters now, means not enough thread in the tube.
     
    mgtstumpy and X38 like this.

  5. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,405

    alchemy
    Member

    For lowest cost I'd go the Pete & Jake route, reusing the batwings. And shorten the current bracket as you move it backwards. Lots of adjustability with the hairpins later if you need to adjust your caster.
     
    X38 likes this.
  6. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,903

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If you go the P&J route you'll need an extra couple of adjustable ends like those you already have at the rear of the 4 bars. For hairpins you need 6 with those batwings (two at the batwing end and one at the chassis end, per side) . You currently have only 4 as it looks like the existing 4 bars aren't adjustable at the batwing end (so don't contain salvageable adjusters!) .

    Chris
     
  7. I'd order hairpins that work with your existing batwings. Get the correct mount for the frame, and whatever extra adjusters needed. Cut the 4 bar mount off, weld the new hairpin mount in the correct position, no compromises on length etc. The existing sway bar mount will stay where it is on the batwing as well.
    You're trying to use what you already have, but get it exactly the way you want. Good luck.
     
    Asphalt Angel, acme30, X38 and 2 others like this.
  8. Barbarian
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 569

    Barbarian
    Member
    from New Jersey

    This is exactly the route I’m thinking would be best. Thank you
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  9. Put Fenders on??? Funny I saw a really well priced Steam roller build and Thought what it would take to change the 4 link on the front away to get to a bit more "Traditional" Please update this as it would help other change back if needed. Also changing out the rear bracket is easy and the paint is black anyhow!
     
  10. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    I like this. However, I don't think the sway bar will really be needed with the hairpins, they will provide sufficient anti-roll force IMO. But I guess it wouldn't hurt to leave it.
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  11. Barbarian
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 569

    Barbarian
    Member
    from New Jersey

    For anyone interested in going the same route, I spoke with P&J and ordered a hairpin less batwing kit that they guaranteed will bolt up to my existing batwings. All I’ll need to do is weld on the new bracket and cut off my existing one. Hairpins are 35-5/8” long.

    Part #2021-C is chrome. $375 plus shipping
    Part #2021 is plain. $289 plus shipping


    Anyone want a nice set of powder coated 4 bars and a frame bracket?? Ha..
     
    Blues4U likes this.
  12. goldmountain
    Joined: Jun 12, 2016
    Posts: 4,442

    goldmountain

    I know that this is a bit after the fact, but what does everyone here have against the 4 bar? Back when they were popular, there were the ads saying how hairpins would induce stress in the axle but as aftermarket I beam axles became available, hairpins came back into fashion. The 4 bar is still a good way to go. I use split wishbones simply because they are cheap.
     
  13. Barbarian
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 569

    Barbarian
    Member
    from New Jersey

    I will be running fenderless and it was purely for the look. I hate the way 4 bars look on a fenderless car. I have a forged axle so I won’t be giving up much, if any at all.
     
    Dan Hay likes this.
  14. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Appearance mostly. Besides an association with the worst era in hot rodding.
     
  15. I have nothing against the 4-bar, Barabarian doesn't want his, needs a simple way to change. In his case, he has a fenderless car.
     
  16. 392
    Joined: Feb 27, 2007
    Posts: 1,206

    392
    Member

    Personally I’d go Pete and Jakes every day every week every month every year. Hands down above speedway and the like. The Slovers treat you like family and not another sale. Test of time to true hot rodding threw and threw. And they know basic and tried and true. Plus they are in Missouri
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  17. grumpy65
    Joined: Dec 19, 2017
    Posts: 920

    grumpy65

    Opinions are much like assholes. Everyone has one, and no two are the same. ;)

    I like 4 bars. And they were in use in the '50s.
    There, that's my asshole.........................errrr, opinion I mean. :rolleyes:
     
    bchctybob, 270bob and Blues4U like this.
  18. A Boner
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 7,419

    A Boner
    Member

    What...Pete and Jakes era was great. Back then the Nationals (pre-48) moved from city to city...good times! The 4 bars actually work the best, except for maybe the original un-split bones, but the 4 bar isn’t the greatest look though!
     
    bchctybob and Jibs like this.
  19. Barbarian
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 569

    Barbarian
    Member
    from New Jersey

    Hey guys - digging this back up as I’m in the midst of the hairpin change over. I had brought my frame to a local certified welder to inspect and fix some suspect welding. While the frame was there, I had him weld the hairpin frame brackets. Pete and Jakes sent me the longer of their 2 hairpins and sent me dimensions of 37-5/8 back from center of axle for the hairpin brackets.

    I’m concerned I made a mistake by not fully mocking up the hairpins prior to having them welded on. Starting to put it all together, the amount of exposed threads needed seems concerning. See the pics. About half the threads are still in the sleeves but you can see I need to expose quite a few more. I know there isn’t any weight and the axle is free hanging in the first few pics. I put jack stands under the axle rather than the frame and it didn’t seem to change much.

    also, in regards to the batwings, are they on the correct sides? I marked them based on how they were when the 4 bar was together but after all the bad crap I found from the previous owner, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were out on backwards.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
  20. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 9,214

    mgtstumpy
    Member

  21. The batwings should be vertical. Also to simulate the axle in finished car position fully loaded, set it up with just the main leaf and a spacer to compensate for the pack. Set the chassis on jackstands under the axle, attach the hairpins to the batwings then see where the rear bracket should be.I would cut off the bracket, bolt the hairpin to that and see where it wants to be located on the chassis. For all you know the bracket may have to be shortened. Don't assume the size is perfect for your car out of the box.

    And yes, you need plenty of adjuster length screwed into the tubes.
     
  22. Barbarian
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 569

    Barbarian
    Member
    from New Jersey

    So to start, sounds like my batwings are on the wrong side?
     
  23. nochop
    Joined: Nov 13, 2005
    Posts: 3,818

    nochop
    Member
    from norcal

    Shackles look wonky too
     
  24. clem
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,188

    clem
    Member

    I believe that it is 1&1/2 as much thread of the diameter of thread - over here for certification.
    I would run with length of 2 x diameter of thread, because I like things to be strong enough.
     
    X38 likes this.
  25. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,173

    Budget36
    Member

    Has me thinking. If I look at a nut and a bolt, I want the bolt to go out the end a thread or two. If I have a longer bolt with more threads, what changes?

    If the “bolt” is backed by a nut, I’d think the bolt on the end of it would be as strong or stronger that what it’s attached to.

    I’m just thinking. Damned night shift
     
  26. clem
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,188

    clem
    Member

    Leverage....
    A bolt is usually used to hold two plates in compression, with a head on one end and a nut on other end.
    Now you are doing a completely different job, and also run the risk of the locking nut (on the wrong end) vibrating undone.
    On a wishbone or four bars, all the leverage of the forces on the front end is on the thread.......
    ........keep thinking about it......... :)
     
    Budget36 likes this.
  27. clem
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,188

    clem
    Member

    ........or get back to work.........:D
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2021
    Budget36 and Blues4U like this.
  28. Barbarian
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 569

    Barbarian
    Member
    from New Jersey

    What looks wrong with the shackles?
     
  29. 270bob
    Joined: Mar 26, 2014
    Posts: 66

    270bob

    I will step in here to help you. I don't know what is meant by wonky, however I am only looking at a picture. The pictured angle is going the opposite direction the shackle angle should be. Most people don't know that transverse spring should have preload so be careful. If the spring doesn't have preload that will be problematic. If that is a chassis engineering axle they require their own spring since CE modified the perch dimensions from Ford. I would contact Jerry or Jason at Pete and Jake's. They own CE now and are a wealth of knowledge and very helpful.
    Sent from my SM-G960U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  30. Barbarian
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 569

    Barbarian
    Member
    from New Jersey

    thanks, this spring is brand new from Jason at P&J for the chassis engineering axle.
     
    270bob likes this.

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