Hot Rods Early Corvette drag racing Tips and tricks

You know I really like you for your love of these cars and your enthusiasm, But I hate to burst your bubble, but 340 to 375 is just GM cam change. Much better cams are now available. Porting old 461 or 462 heads is a waste of money unless you went radical like the heads I put on Butch's car. I would guess $3000+, if you can find some old timer to do the job. Much better and a lot less money are, Alum. heads, are cheaper , lighter and you can run a full point higher compression .
Next bad news, That GM fuelie Is way to small for that engine. That is why Bill Thompson invented the very rare dual metering injection unit. Not that one could be found today. Simple truth is... a Good single plane manifold with a good carb, will out perform: 2-4s, 3-2s, 4-2s, 6-2s or any GM FI unit. Not as cool looking , simply works and gets the done. If you only want to look the part, and not go as fast as the engine can do, Disregard the above. Sorry I only speak the truth, Jim

 

So speaking of actual horsepower ratings, what does a real deal 327 365 horse dyno at? I know for a fact that a factory Chevy 302 with headers and a good tune will Dyno at over 400. I have zero experience with the Rochester injection unit but am curious at the real numbers. And yes I absolutely agree the factory heads take a ton of work .

 

You know I really like you for your love of these cars and your enthusiasm, But I hate to burst your bubble, but 340 to 375 is just GM cam change. Much better cams are now available. Porting old 461 or 462 heads is a waste of money unless you went radical like the heads I put on Butch's car. I would guess $3000+, if you can find some old timer to do the job. Much better and a lot less money are, Alum. heads, are cheaper , lighter and you can run a full point higher compression .
Next bad news, That GM fuelie Is way to small for that engine. That is why Bill Thompson invented the very rare dual metering injection unit. Not that one could be found today. Simple truth is... a Good single plane manifold with a good carb, will out perform: 2-4s, 3-2s, 4-2s, 6-2s or any GM FI unit. Not as cool looking , simply works and gets the done. If you only want to look the part, and not go as fast as the engine can do, Disregard the above. Sorry I only speak the truth, Jim[/QUOTE]

Jim,
No bubble burst at all an I agree with everything you said above!
My goal is to run the injector which is a big limiting factor both in cfm and cam choice. I understand that eventually it will probably come off but for now I want to play with it.
As for heads I totally understand the short comings of the stock heads and the price of porting. I should have clarified but I have a nice set of 461 heads that were ported as a favor yrs ago. As for aluminum I was pretty close to ordering a set of trick flow heads but I just couldn’t work them into my budget this time around.
So In other words I completely understand where you are coming from and appreciate the advice.




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The closest my 57 will get to the track is the parking lot behind the stands! But i sure enjoy reading this topic.

 

That sounds good. I like fender well headers, I wish I could have found some when I updated my black car years back. The only draw back typically, is when corked up, the exhaust usually makes a 90* turn back to the mufflers under the car. And the exhaust is on the out side of the frame. Good luck getting back to the inner frame where their is room for the mufflers. This has to cost HP. The other option is side exhaust like my red car has. which I hate. Way to noisy. Can't hear the radio, Hearing damage, Drive over a loose road and you create a dust storm.

With my under the car headers and exhaust, I lose no power. My ETs are the same , open or closed. Jim

 

Sorry for the long response times, But I am selling my house and have 3 different inspectors coming in 36 hours to tear apart my house. Worked all day to finish many projects. By Monday night I should have more time for Internet stuff. Jim[/QUOTE]

I had 4 inspections today....General building
Septic
Search for abandon fuel tanks
And swimming pool.

All passed. So now I can have my life back and try to help you guys with rear suspension and traction bars.
BTW, what kind of traction bars are you referring to ?? For tonight I foresee A nice cold drink, relax and a steak dinner. Jim

 

Colin, when I move the red car up on the hoist I will take some pictures of how I dealt with mufflers. The headers on the red car I bought from Jim and I am more than happy with them. When I finished the car in 2013, I put some short mufflers that were quite noisy and would drive it generally short distances. A group of us decided to attend the GM Powertrain show on the other side of town which was a good 45 minute drive. I used ear plugs on occasion (including at the track since all of the noise is right by your ear) but I decided to buy a radio with some cancelling ear phones and it worked well on the trip over. When I went to leave I noticed that someone at the show reached in and stole my radio which was between the seats. My car has no radio or heater-just the symphonic sound of the big block. After about 20 minutes I pulled up to a light next to a guy in my car club, a guy that is not anti noise by any means (he drove a front engine dragster for years in the 60s). I asked him if it was as loud on the outside as it was on the inside and he yelled back "Yes it is!". I decided it needed to be quieted down. I now have some turbo mufflers under the car which really helps quiet it down considerably and I added some Quick Time Performance cutouts that I can open up when I want to. Hard to notice how I dealt with the crossover with the pipes under the car from the side or the rear, at least from my perspective. It can be clumsy and may cost HP like Jim references but the cutouts work well and it is easy to remove my side pipes and install some collectors I have left over from my old 68 Z28 I had in 69-71.

Good you get to relax Jim-you deserve it with the pressures of selling a house. I am working on cleaning up my shop as I have to hold my car club meeting Wednesday night, a good thing since it makes me put in an extra effort. Funny deal is today I got a couple of hours and cleaned up my back room and found a car cover I had not seen in maybe 10 years. Made me chuckle.

 

Thanks Jim and Jim. As far as traction bars go I am probably going to fab up some Lakewood type slapper bars except they will be set at the correct length in approximation to the spring eye. I took some pics last weekend of the current so called ladder bars on the car now , will post tomorrow so you guys can have a good chuckle

 

What about traction masters? Apparently they are still in business in Southern California. I was leaning that way?


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Damn good thing we brought this up. I ran Traction Masters back in the 60s. They will stop wheel hop (also known as spring wind-up). That is worst thing you an do for traction. All the TM bars do is bind the rear suspension. Even worse on cars that have the 60-62 upper stabilizer bars. Instead of using a real 4 bar suspension to locate the instant center, the Traction Master bars Bind the rear suspension, especially with the upper bars in the latter cars by 6. All they do is bind the rear suspension to a solid rear suspension, so no spring wind up. If you want to burnout forever and not accelerate. This the way to go. Spinning is not winning. If you have the GM upper bars, toss them. Instant Center is the only way to go. It lifts the whole body, engine and frame. hence my wheel stands. I know IC was not known back then, but to bad for them. May be I should let JP explane the concept. LOL Jim

 

On this 58 that I built a couple of years ago, I ran the exhaust 90* to the inside and then mufflers under the car. you can just barely see the header collector behind the fender. I made a cap for the header so it would be easy to uncork. Like Jim said, not the best for power, but it looked cool IMO. They were Tri five Chevy headers.

 

I have Hooker fenderwells on my 57 150 . Due to the stock steering shaft on the Vette they dont come close on the drivers side. On a straight axle car probably works like a charm

 

Larry, I have to be really honest, I wanted the fender well headers for the "look cool look" WTF, I am a showman if given a chance.

 

BTW spent the day working on the preload pin on the bottom of the water pump that contacts the timing cover for the roller cam. The Vette saddle mount makes it that much more fun.

 

Jim is right about the IC or instant center, he helped me with mine tremendously, you have to play around with it depending on your combination, dont forget a slipper clutch.
One thing i would like to add is use common sense, its neat the nostalgia stuff but please have the proper modern safety gear, things like a modern helmet and not something from the 60s or 70s open face, recently at an oldies race a person running a 15 or 17 second car did a spin out about 3/4 ways down, hit the wall and side of head hit side glass very hard and when i use to go to the billet proof race in Washington could not believe what passed for safety gear, thats just a disaster waiting to happen all in the name of nostalgia.
Just my opinion.
jp

 

On my next project that has stalled, I intend on using slapper bars but I am wondering is it best to use the forward leaning u-bolt or just standard u-bolts. In some ads from the early days I see both slapper/traction bars and wonder what is the advantages and disadvantages. Also I have seen some guys use a u-bolt behind the axle that goes around the leafs and seen some guys leave that u-bolt off, even though there is the little plate welded on the rear section of the bar. I cut that little plate off of the inside of my bar since I had limited clearance with tires but not sure about the whole technology of the slapper bars in the first place. I am sure Jim could probably enlighten me in this regards.

 

I agree with JP on this. For my 56, I have purchased things like the vintage NHRA Blowproof bellhousing etc so it will "look period correct" My plan is to get it all up and running long enough to get some good photos etc. After that, it will all be pulled back off and replaced with the proper items to make it safe going down the street or track. If I wanted to have a car that I just trailered to car shows, it wouldn't matter but I don't want that. I want to drive the wheels off it

 

Here are the current traction devices on my 59 Thin wall inch and a half SQ tubing...

 

Here is a pic of the traction bars on my 56. I think Colin and I both have room for improvement in that area

 

Since the thread title says”early “ Vettes... here’s a not often seen goodie for pussyfoot rear problems:

 

Hi Jim D. ,I think the forward mounting point is to try to get more lift out of the bars. It does not look like the rear housing would be bolted to the springs secure enough. I do not like it. When you blast off the line, a lot of violence is happening back there. (Tip....replace the stock 7/16 U-bolts with 1/2" bolts) Also get new heavy duty saddles, the stock ones are to weak and will bend, besides they will probably be at the wrong angle to the drive shaft.

Clamping the leaf springs with extra u-bolts is an attempt to lessen the spring wrap-up. It further binds the rear suspension.

The technology and theory of the bars is to take the rotation of the rear axle and use that torque to lift the entire car, thus forcing the rear axle downward to have more energy placed on the rear tires and try to move toward the ICs .
Not a lot of adjustability with bars, unlike 4-links and adjustable ladder bars. The only adjustments are on snubber bars is where to contact the rubber cushons and the air gap. On my car no air gap and pre-loaded. Jim

 

"Ditto" on the analysis of the Traction Master system. Any single bar device that is solidly attached on both ends creates the same effect. I've been through the traction issues with both leaf and coil springs on a wide range of suspension systems and binding it down solid is NOT the way to go.

 

I ran the Lakewood traction bar with the J bolts on a 62 Nova II with mono leaf's. I though thy worked pretty good for a kid a few years out of highschool.

 

Colin here are a few pictures of the exhaust I spoke of in an earlier post. I originally had a small muffler behind the header and it was way too loud. You can see the turbo mufflers are tucked up pretty good in the stock location and they quiet the car down considerably. I can crack open the electric cutouts to adjust to the amount of noise desired on a particular day. There have been times on Woodward where I have opened the cutouts all the way and you cannot go too long without ear plugs. The piece directly behind the header is a couple of pieces of stainless I bought from Summit-straight 3" and some y-style pipes that I welded up. I wanted a flange under the car so I could remove that section and install the collector when I have run it at the track. Pretty easy to change out the y-pipe section to the collector and the pipes left in the car are pretty solid-they do not bang around. I believe the pieces are Pypes brand but cannot swear to it without looking at my build book. I know I bought them from Summit though and the stainless are 3" and is real easy to weld with a mig and mild steel wire. Not sure how much depth to go into as you can get the idea and your application will require a different yet maybe a similar approach. I do not believe the pipes hang down too low and they are at pretty much the same height as the slapper bars anyways.

Sorry some of the pipes are dirty-I clean the car pretty good in spring and then concentrate more on driving it so there is a bit of dirt here and there.

 

Hi Colin and Scott and anyone else who wants information relating to their request for traction adders and rear springs and suspension for racing. The subject of traction was covered yesterday and this morning pretty well I think, If their are any more questions, ask.

These thoughts are for leaf spring suspensions that our cars use. For traction, you will need tires that wider then the wheel wells are. Three ways to go 1. tubs with fiberglass and frame modifications
2. mini tubs, requires fiberglass work and relocating the springs inboard
3.raise the car by adding more leaves, re-arching, re-tempering and reversing the shackles.
What height you choose is up to you. But you need enough so the tires do not hit the wheel outer surface. The springs need to be strong enough to carry the entire weight of the vehicle and not break the leaves. When all this done including the snubber bars, the pressure on the rear tire is extreme. See picture below. That is with 16 lbs of air. Jim

 

Damn! That is one wadded up slick! never woulda guessed it had 16lbs in it. Bigger tire not too much of an issue for me as my 59 had it's rear fenders radiused back in the day. Thanks for the pics Jim and Jim.

 

Jim can we discuss front springs when you have time?

 

Although Jim has explained the negative limitations of Traction Masters and I believe his opinion, for whatever it is worth Scott brought up the issue and throwing it out for whatever it is worth. Back in the early 60s the Vettes used Traction Masters and were reasonably successful. If they had known more about instant center, they most likely would have used slapper bars. I am amazed to be honest that both 283 and 327 Vettes ran in the 12s in 1962. The tires were junk and they used Traction Masters. The B/SP class winner at the 62 Winternationals Grassman-Nicholson-Wade 315 HP 1961 Vette still has the original Traction Masters still on the car.

I had slapper bars on my "stock" black 62 but when I ran in the Uncle Sam's Pie Eating event the organizers (the Meltdown crew) felt slapper bars were "too new" and would allow Traction Masters. I ordered a set of Traction Masters for the event but it was getting close to the event and had not received them so I made my own. The car does not have that much power that it makes a world of difference but I probably had more fun at that event than any event in recent memory. I had at least 7 and maybe 8 runs. Good memories. Here is a picture of the ones I made and the new ones that eventually were shipped. They make two different types. There are the ones where the front mount is welded on (like the Grassman car which is now owned by Dan Hamption, who also owns "The Pizza Man" Corvette record holder) and the bolt on type like I ordered. Just thought Scott may appreciate the pictures.

Here are the slapper bars I had on the black car. Kind of funny in that I bought some Lakewood stickers but they were too big for the slapper bars so I made these slapper bars with a tube big enough to fit the stickers. I plan to use them on the next project and had these J-bolts or forward leaning bolts but not sure if I should use regular u-bolts of the j-bolts. Jim do you believe there is a problem with using the j-bolts? Is one more stiff on the street? Just curious as I have to weld a little angle where I have the arrow and not sure which way to go.

Here are the Traction Masters I made on the black car.



Here are the new ones I got from Traction Masters.

Here is the slapper bars that I mad to fit the stickers (LOL).
Here is a picture that some professional photographer took at the Pie Crust event to make it look like it was back in time. It was on the Meltdown Drags website at the time. Credit to the photographer on the lower left corner.

 

Jim Dillion I really like how you have configured your exhaust. Thanks for the pictures.

 

Jim D, my first corvette was 230 HP car. I ran G-pure stock and no mods were allowed. No slicks, no over sized tires, no headers. won every week except for the run where I literally broke the stock shifter in half going for 2nd . I had no trouble with wheel hop, I think my success was my tune and my aggressive driving manor. My car was known as the slowest corvette in Morris county when I bought it, which helped helped taking $$ from know the it alls. I got bored with the track racing after a few months and put hookers, a 30-30 cam, 4.56 gears 9.15x15 atlas plycrons tires on it , re-did the springs, and added Traction Masters to it. The TMs worked as to wheel hop, but spinnig the tires was easy. With that little engine I would launch at 7000 and they would hook up real quick while the BB muscle car would spin for to long. They would catch up after the end of the quarter was finished. The TMs had their place in history, but the slapper bars was future.

The stiffnes is from the springs, not the snubber bars. The snubber bars are only fastened to one end, no binding. My mechanical mind says the J-bolts look wrong. Jim