Hot Rods The "Whatever" project

I like that idea. I remember Nance used to sell a shrunken Deuce coupe. I read somewhere online Mr.Nance's old molds were bought by someone.If those were still available for someone to have that body made, that could work. I think it was about 35 inches wide at the widest point. So it would be a center single seater. I could get used to that. Some day I'll tell the story I have about Mr. Nance from about 1976...

 

Speedway's still offering their 34 Vicky and 32 Coupe bodies. Lotsa room to make them fit. I've used both. Made 'em flip to get in and out.

 

So not much progress last couple of days. Pulled old mangy out of the way, and am working on motor mounts using that 327 block that found its way back to me. I'll be using a system like we used on the dirt cars back in the 70's, side mounts down to the fram in front, and an engine plate at the back of the block. I've got a sheet of 6061-T6 just big enough. Got to get a bell housing next. As the frame is straight front to back, I can make everything up and set the height without welding anything to the frame. This way I can jockey stuff around to make a body fit, my feet fit, the tranny fit, and all that other crap I know I've forgotten about.

Meanwhile I've been giving some thought to what the Dr. suggested. Looking at the Speedway catalog last night, Istopped on the A Vicky body they make for vintage supers. That could be an interesting setup. Kurtis nose, custom made aluminum hood and side panels covering the engine, yeah that might work...I'd like a door, I'mold after all, and I think one could be cut in and modified. That's still a ways off...

Meanwhile, I've been cleaning up the stuff I acquired recently. I have all the cutter heads for a Neway seat machine cleaned, and am designing a bench to hold the power head and guide rail. The neighbor has a vast supply of vintage wood, so it will look like it was in a garage forever. The boring bar I got will take a lot longer to get set back up. The rest just needs a good cleaning and oiling. I'll post pics when done.

 

You know those old '60s and '70s Hot Rod mags you gave me years back? At least one of them that I was just going through had an article on cutting out the door for a 'glass body, adding structural wood, latch, hinges, the whole shootin' match. Lemme know if you want a few pages scanned and sent your way.

Oh, and regarding your newly-found fan base, if you click the "watch thread" button on the top right of whichever thread you're viewing, you can start subscribing to all of those other cool builds that you want to follow.

 

Dave : IF you're going to 'work' the glass anyway, you could always split the shell & add some width so you don't have to travel "solo" at all times.... Just a thought...

 

Again, you had me, at 327 and now it's 302, the mid/late 60's era is when my hi-perf juices started flowing as my neighbor and high school pal and I both had 57 Chevys, his a wagon and mine a BelAir 2 door hardtop, both 283/4speeds, then he bought a 68 Z/28 in 1971.
I drove him to buy it and will never forget following him home, those 302 engines are legendary for a reason.
Glad to see a member with racing experience (and stories), we love photos too, especially with cool hardware like you have and are contemplating using.
I like that you are open minded while having to be cautious financially, I have been in the "limited income" category for some time myself and it is an adjustment after many years of burning my wallet at both ends.
Looking forward to your project updates.

 

It would be a good help having those pages scanned. There may be others in R&C as well. I'll let you know...

I've never worked with glass, well there was a snowmobile way back that needed a big opening as I went from a 250 cc, 12 hp fan cooled single running on gasoline, to a 292 cc ??? hp Blizard engine running on methanol and Klotz Nitroblend which was a freeair engine. Oh and the machine was a Skidoo Elan, little tiny thing with ungodly hp after that swap... Made it into a Blizard Elan like the factory. It weighed less than me.

Anyway Dr. I probably could make do, cuz I know all you people will have good advise when I need it. Any pictures of projects in glass you've done would be appreciated, so I can step into the next phase fully informed.

As to the 301 (old rodders term for 283 crank/327 block), I have just acquired a bunch of old engine shop equipment, and if I can get it all working again, I want to try doingas much of the work myself as possible. It's been a while since I used stuff like that, so getting the rust off, is not only literal, but figurative as well. We'll see...

So today was engine mounts. Remember early on I mentioned I have some degrees in mechanical engineering? I use CAD when designing brackets and such: That's Cardboard Aided Design. A friend of mine from NC via Ann Arbor coined that term. The 1 on the left is the layout for the front engine mounts block pad (I didn't have any mounts to copy, so...). The right template is the brackets I had cut by waterjet for the rear suspension.

So next for the front mounts is cut some tubing to go from a frame bracket to the block plate. That's tomorrow. I also got the rear block plate started. It only needs a few more holes and some frame brackets to bolt to.

 

Hit the wrong button, so here's the picture of the motor plate: The 2x4 was just the right height to hold the block at the 4 degree angle needed to work with the rear axle angle.

 

Remind the class again why you're running hairpins to the rear axle, rather than the more(?) common 4-link / trailing arm / Watts link setup?
Also, I feel like we're missing some key triangulation here, but then again you're the engineer who's already built a few race cars...

 

Dave : As for the front motor mounts... Might want to take a look at how the sprint car crowd does it(or just look at the Speedway racing catalog) : a "U" shaped plate bolts to the 2 bolts on each side of the front of the Chevrolet block & then to the frame(there's another one with 2 plates that pivot at the bottom of the motor to keep the mounts/frame from being "stressed" during use). The first (single plate one) could be mounted with a couple of rubber donuts resting on top of the frame(sort of a smaller version of the Ford donuts for the "flattie" water pumps)?? just a couple of ideas from the "KISS" principle(& from the guy that started me "down the road to perdition" with Sprint Cars almost 50 years ago!)

 

Sure thing. What I have figured is that if Bobby Unser could win Pikes Peak 9 timeswiththe same car using this simple suspension setup, who am I to question.

But seriously, consider the 4 bar. If the 4 bars are exactly the same length, ther will be no bind when the rear travels up and down, assuming the bars are parallel. Make the bars dissimilar length or non-parallel, and there will be a bind upon movement. Throw one bar away (the sprint car guys started doing this in the 70's, Jim and I did it on the front in 76 at Middletown one night out of need. We needed to make a new drag link in the pits in a hurry, so we stole the lower left (the same the sprint guys left off) and managed to make the feature. Did really good that night.

If you left 1bar out ofeither end then you could make the other side either angled or different length with no bind. But the bars need to be sturdy enough to handle the loads being imposed (true for either setup of course). Now with it set up as a 3 link, you can angle the bars, and the instant center will be at a point where 2 lines projected from the side with 2 bars intersect. However this point moves in space both forward/backward and up/down (basic kinematics). So going to a wishbone (also needs to be built beefy) locates the effective pivot point that doesn't move in space with travel relative to the chassis. It does in the 3 bar setup, which has to be accounted for in chassis dynamics.

Originally I planned to use really fancy Watts links on both sides with aluminum floating bell cranks pivoted on the axle tubes. When designed according to theory the useful range of motion gives straight line motion. The length of the bell crank and the length of the connecting links need to be considered, but a little math works out the proper bar lengths to bell crank length. Now we have a very complicated mess of components, bell cranks, 4 bars, locating stuff, that all adds up to complications and weight.

So in my attempt to simplificate and make lighter as Colin Chapman said, I chose the setup shown, even with the compromises that are inherent. 1 big one is that the u-joint angle changes with travel. So we need to set a compromise angle when setting up the rear suspension. Then during rear axle travel the 2 u-joints won't be too badly out of wack (good engineering term there) at extreme suspension travel. As I only have 5 total inches of travel in the rear, and that wishbone is approximately 36 inches long, more or less, this is minimised. Andremember this link has to withstand both engine torque reactions and brake torque reactions,so it was made beefy. I used DOM tubing 7/8 inch 3/16 wall. When finished I will have gussets in both the front and rear wishbone. I made both the same.

Also as I had already made a Watts link for lateral location, I used it. At the front, I am using a buggy spring, which could supply lateral location, but I don't like the idea of a dead perch on 1 side. So once I get more stuff located up front I will make another Watts link, and to be able to tunethe chassis, the front Watts link will be adjustable for height.

As a note about Watts links used for lateral locating devices, the instant center is the pivot point of the bell crank. That will locate the roll center at that end. It would be better if I had attached the center pivot to the chassis and the end links to the axles, as then the roll centers would havebeen fixed relative to the unsprung masses, hence a little more predictable but...

No I haven't given this too much thought yet. Next is steering and how to minimize/eliminate bump steer. Cross steering is possible and new Vega style boxes are relatively inexpensive, however I don't like all the stuff to get the steering shaft around the engine, support bearings, shafts, u-joints, etc. Ialso know that side steering like Ford did will have some bump steer, and cowl steering will be extreme if done poorly. It requires a lot of effort to get the steering arm arc radius to match the drag link arc radius. Some sort of bell crank that allows the drag link to be the same length and pivot at the same point as the suspension linkage that controls the motion of the front axle. We had that with the 4 bar linkage on the #4 car with Danny, but againmore things added to flex.

I saw a few pictures of Frank Kurtis' Indy roadsters from the early 1950s, onethat won Indy twice, the Fuel Injection Special, and the second was the Chrysler hemi powered car that Firestone ended up using to test tires with. Both had a bell crank assembly vertically at the front arranged in such a way that they ended up with cross steering like a Vega box gives. Jeep used a similar setup on the CJs of the 50s and 60s. Still some extra linkage, and bump steer, but better. I'll keep working on this ideafor a while yet, so maybe I can get there from here.

Man that was long-winded. Hope I'm not boring everyone with the technobabble. I've had a lot of time since March to research, doodle, and dream up stuff that may or may not get used. Oh well...

 

Now back to motor mounts. Yes Dr. I thought about doing a front plate, but ran out of tooling plate. Hey I'm half Scotts, we're thrifty remember. So I'm going with side mounts out of thrift. I can make everything needed from materials on hand. And not have stuff in the way up front if I decide to run the Hilborns on it (belt drive off the right side, alternator down low on the left). I can picture it I just can't draw it yet...

Keep thesuggestions coming I have used some so far. Remember my motto "Plaigerize, plaigerize, plaigerize..."

 

Pickin' brains and stealin' tech is never boring for me. I'm looking forward to more.

Ed

 

Welcome to the site. I really like your progress so far.
A former customer wanted to make a 2 seater sprint car for the street . He got it from his son when he developed brain cancer and died . He backed out when we started crunching numbers. Now it sets in his garage as a reminder of his son.

 

Dan has lots of clowns around the word, er that is clones... Yeah that's the story!

Got my idea for front mounts made. I may still do as the good Dr. suggested and make a front engine plate. What I made today will allow me to position the engine front to back so I can fit all the other stuff in. If I go engine plate, I'll figure out a way to mount an alternator and the Hilborn fuel pump off it to keep the front simple and clean. Here's what today's effort looks like: And Ratrodder does this look familiar? For the next couple of days I need to work on a ramp into the storage shed so I can get more stuff in there for now: This stuff is heavy! It needs to roll so that's next...

 

So some dimensions to mull over: Wheelbase 99 inches, hub to hub width both axles 54.5 inches, frame width 23 inches inside, 27 inches outside (I have an aluminum tri-flow radiator that measures 22 inches wide w/o the mounting flanges), front axle pin to pin 46 inches. Enough dimensions for now.

I am using aftermarket forged 37-40 Ford style spindles. All of the aftermarket spindles that Iknow of are sans arms, so I bought Speedway's flat plate steering arms, set up for cross steering. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this but the length of these arms, that is where the tie rod end hole is, is at least an inch longer that stock Ford arms. I originally set up the front suspension using original 37-40 spindles. When I first put on the aftermarket parts, I thought I had adjusted something incorrectly. The tie rod was under the front of the frame and would hit the crossmember and ends of the framerails on bump.

So I laid out the holes where I wanted them, adjusting position for Ackerman, and built up the thickness with some plate, so I could drill and ream for tie rod ends. And seeing as I was going to all this effort, I changed from the wimpy 11/16-18 old Ford tie rod ends, to a more manly, beefy 3/4-16 Ford Truck tie rod end, part # er and el 150 (left and right hand). They also have a beefier stud that is slightly longer, hence lowering the tie rod a little more as well. Oh and shortening the arm made it clear as before.

The other arm for the side steering is actually made for Chevy spindles. Fortunately they use smaller bolts, as I noticed from the specs that the holes are only 1/8 inch different in spacing. Setting up the arm in a mill I was able to move the holes to the correct spacing and size to fit the Ford spindles. Then a little off the inside of the arm to clear the king pin boss, and Viola, it fit. And a side benefit is it doesn't require doing anything special to clear the grease fitting, on either original spindles or the repops.

 

Yes, glad to see the lathe go somewhere it'll be used. A little more capacity than your other one, right?

Other than weight distribution, what is the reason for having the engine as far back in the chassis as it is?

 

I don't think that will be the final position, I've made the frame constant width so the engine can be jockeyed about. What will be the determining factor will be what needs to be in front of the engine. Radiator, water pump, fan, just the usual stuff. Also once the transmission is in (maybe the shorty 4-speed, maybe a T-5) I may have to move it as far forward as possible to get a driveshaft to fit.

I have so many "whatevers" to still determine. Most people start with a clear plan, me I'm winging it. It's called seat of the pants design, and I don't recommend doing it this way. But as you know, my life has been somewhat by the seat of the pants. It worked for me, but then I'm crazy like that...

 

Like what you're doing! "Press on regardless".....

 

Greetings Dave G!!.. I am another old dirt oval modified guy, although not QUITE as long in the tooth as you! ( 60 years old)... I was fortunate to learn the old school way, when I was in my mid teens....we made or modified stock components for EVERYTHING!!! I'm still a DIRT modified mechanic today but I seriously miss the old days , the old was and a bunch of old long gone tracks...Reading, Flemington , both Nazareth tracks, Hightstown , Syracuse.....I love what your building...great stories...keep the pictures coming, on the HAMB love pictures!! ... and bro, you GOTTA use the injectors!..( I setup a few bigblock/methanol injectors before carburetors became mandatory at most tracks)

 

Those were the days! When my older brother and I were just kids (I was 6, he was 10) we went to the Valley one night in 1960. I was hooked. Went just about every Saturday night for all of the 60's, 70's and started into the 80's. When the pro built cars came along,I was in college, and after moved to Ohio. Dirt racing is so addictive, when I finally relocated to upstate NY in 98, I stayed away. I'm glad I did, as seeing what the class has become, I wouldn't enjoy it. You are a true racer sticking with it even today, when the cars are all homogenized under the wrap.

What's really needed is a promoter brave enough to start a nostalgia series, up to date safety equipment, maybe a tire requirement (max width, no drag tires), and real bodies made from the junk yards (Ok so maybe just the roof and deck lid). No aerodynamic effects. Oh and any engine you like, as long as it is a production engine. Remember the tire requirement, maybe use the same tires as the Prostock guys run. They wouldn't be able to handle rediculous hp, so no need for killer engines. Just my thoughts, open for adjustment. Maybe even require a different frame design, more in keeping with the beginning of the tube frame era. 2x3 main rail instead of 2x4. Why you ask? Keeps guys from just putting a body on a late design chassis. If that were available today, I might even consider making the "Whatever" chassis fit the rules.

Oh well, just daydreaming...

Today was clean the garage. The only progress was thinking about Ratrodder's comment regarding engine position. I measured all the stuff needing to be in front of the engine, radiator, fan, pump, and pulleys, and then expected stuff in back of the front crossmember, and came up with being able to move the engine ahead 8 inches from where it is. No problemas the frame has no taper, so the mounts can end up anywhere. This really opens up some space for stuff behind the engine plate/firewall, you know, tranny, feet, me(!), body, all sorts of stuff. So tomorrow, Unward thru the fog!

 

Hi Dave G

I use to live in your town of Gansevoort (1987 to 1991)…there use to be a fellow up there that had one of Harry Peeks old late models that ran at Fonda speedway back in the day..

I am neck deep in saving an old Jalopy that ran at Fort Dix Speedway in NJ in 1963...

I remember talking to the "Flying Dutchman" more than once too...

Glad you found us...

MikeC

 

Moved the engine forward the 8 inches today. I'll post pics tomorrow. Not really feeling it today, so that's all.

 

No chassis work, as yard work needed to be finished. I bought a shed last year (2019 summer) and in typical engineer fashion, I overdid it. The shed is a 12x20 typical prefab, that is very well built and was a great price as the company had it in stock for over a year, and they are just 1/2 mile from my home, so no extra delivery cost.

Well in my exuberance, I decided it needed a good foundation. A concrete slab priced out to over $6k. Not surprising. So wanting something that wouldn't frost heave, I looked for alternatives. The best option turned out to be helical screw peers, Techno-something or other. $3k installed, 12 of them in total. The 4 corner posts can support a minimum of 2500 lbs each, and the 8 infill peers can support 3500 lbs each. Way overkill! Then 6x6 beams tying each of the 4 rows together laterally (which also support the shed runners, 4x4s), are braced front to back with 2x6s and diagonally to brace from racking. See what I mean aboutbeing an engineer???

Then to top it off (or infill actually) the space under all this is filled with 1 inch crushed stone. As it ended up there is no opening for rodents, rabbits, raccoons, or other r-word animalsto make homes under the deck. Plus all this stone allows drainage under the shed, as it sits in a runoff area from the cul-de-sac, and our driveway.

Ok, so now I have a shed 14 or so inches off the ground, well drained underneath, and well supported. And yes it is also fastened to the substructure with more lags than most houses would be bolted down with (yes I am an engineer, with the "knack", look it up under Dilbert if you don't know...).

So it needed a ramp to get into the end double doors. A local contractor started on it lastnovember, just before the weather turned. Then Covid hit. Then to the best I can figure out, his ex, whose name the business was in, well let's just say I haven't been ableto contact himin about 9 or 10 months. So all the material was there, and all it needed was someone to finish it (ME???). So back problems and all, I figured out how to move the 24x24 concrete pavers (13 still do place out of 15), level them, and finish the ramp. Only took 3 1/2 days. This is a job that a healthy backed person could do in 1/2 day with breaks. Oh and moved a lot of the recently acquired engine shop machinery in as well. But that's done.

So I have been puttering around with little parts for the "Whatever" in the interim. I have 2 mechanical tachometers, a 6000 rpm unit from a lab centrifuge, and a 10,000 rpm unit from an automatic beaker stirrer. Yeah I know, I suck at pictures. The 10,000rpm was made by Stewart Warner, the 6000 rpm unit was made by Waltham Watch (I think its watch not clock). Both work and I have checked them with a strobe tach to see if they are accurate.

So now I need a tach drive base for my Vertex magneto. So ok I have a used up Mallory double life distributor that just happens to be a tach drive model. The advance mechanism is crap, and I have no cap rotor condensors points, hey I bought it for $10 at the Bennington VT classis car show 12 or 14 years ago, so nogreat loss. A little mangy, but it has the gear drive, and its in good condition otherwise. I also have an old roached out Mag drive base that was busted a little bit.So I finished off the fracture and found out it fits inside the Mallory. Now to mate them up. It appears that if I machine most of the Mallory housing off, and fit the mag base into same, I can make my own. The shafts are similar, so once I remove the rest of the advance mechanism, and fit the drive dog from the mag base into it, I should have a working drive. Time will tell...

 

I promiss to get better pictures next time. And learn to spell, and learn brevity, and to stop using $10 words...

Itsan engineer thing, the "Knack"

 

Left you some messages on your "Spindle" thread. I used '34 "B-B" axle(spindle to spindle), unsplit wishbone(wanted to keep it looking like a "survivor") on my '28 "A-A", but made backing plates for the 6-hole "B-B" truck hubs, & used '99-up F-350 Ford disk brakes (used rear rotors on all 4 corners : they look like Sprint-car rotors)all the way around. I've got a thread to load, but am waiting until I get the truck running (& learn how to upload pictures! LOL!!) PM me if you want...

 

Not my spindlethread, I stole it... sort of. Yours sounds interesting. Yes learn how to upload and then write a tutorial for all of us old guys new to this posting stuff. I manage, but with much angst. Speaking of rotors, another setup I am playing with may use Speedway 55-64 (Ithink they go that new) forged aluminum hubs with 1996 S10 Blazer (I had one so know what they look like) front rotors and metric calipers, and with some fettling can use the same brake bracket used with the Speedway (amongst others) forged caliper bracket for 37-newer Ford spindles. Just a little machining of a newinner bearing spacer/adapter to get the dimensions to all work.

That was what was fun about building race cars when I was doing it, figuring out all these wierd ideas, and then making them work without spending huge bucks to just buy stuff and bolt it all on without everknowing the how/what/why of things. Yes it took time but didn't cost much. Well I can dream about the old days still...

I'll pm you when I figure out how...

 

My parts cost for the disc brake conversion, thanks to Pik-n-pull's 1/2 price days (for the rotors, calipers, E-brake cables, etc), Rock auto's parts for( master cyl), & Speedway(for "ready-made" brake tubing lengths & hardware) (I went "non-power") was well under $400. I did have to pay for some machine work on my '34 "B-B" truck rear axle housing, & I put a bunch of time into figuring out the fabrication, but I've always enjoyed that! I spent 30+yrs in the shops as a fabricator, before I got smart & joined the Ironworkers & made some money!! But that's another story....

 

One of my best friends, Jim Langenback, was a fabricator. He built the basic chassis I started with for the #54 modifieds, and taught me a lot about fabricating and welding, things that school cannot teach someone. That friendship started in 1974 and lasted till his death in 2010. Jim could weld tin foil to an aluminum soda can (pop can to you midwesterners. I spent 13 years in the midwest early in my engineering career).

Jim had such an inate sense about things he could have been an engineer himself, given an education, or different timeframe when we used to value "practical" engineers. Those days someone could earn a PE license thru experience. Sadly we seem to have moved on from valuing practical hands on experience. Too bad...

Around here, once parts get to the salvage yard they are usually pretty roached out, rusty, or otherwise used up. Hard parts are still usable, but things like rotors, calipers, etc, are not worth the effort unless they are scarce. Salt worms get into everything, and even cast iron gets pretty used up on machined surfaces. I am jealous of you in SoCal, especially, due to that. Plus it seems your salvage yards keep stuff longer than ours, and allow pick your parts. Not many around here I know of that let you even past a parts desk. Liability issues and such. Not like going to Drake's junk yard in South Lee when my brother and I were younger. Oh well, can't go back in time.

Today's effort is steering. I'm going to see how my old Schroeder champ car steering box lines up with the axle and steering I am devising. We'll see...

 

A favorite car 54