Technical BBC new camshaft failure (long story)

Johnson Lifters only make rollers, discontinued flat tappets. For the 454 the owner that had the cam failure on, swapping over to a solid roller may well exceed the cost of what he paid for the 454 in the first place. But that's up to him.
I have Johnson solid flat tappets lifters in my BBF with a much hotter cam and it broke in fine. Now I'm reluctant to ever make a cam swap.

 

Update: As far as I am concerned, there is so much debris in the engine now, if put back together with a new cam again, the engine is destined to fail.

I have convinced the owner it needs to come out and he finally agreed.

We will pull it out sometime next week and open it up and see just how much metal is really in there from this.

This really sucks as this went from bad dist. gears to a rebuild.

I will let you know what we find.

Thanks for all the input guys.

Bill

 

Gosh you explained it, and I didn't even have to watch the video, well done there.

Only question I have is I should have a bad cam to compare, right? also, I think a smaller ball bearing would show more "bounce" than a large one. I've several old cams, I wonder if I were to do some grinding on them and get into the body, would that be considered a soft cam? Just to use as a comparison.

Thoughts?

 

I don't think you really need a bad cam to use to compare hardness, I would test several of the good cams and lifters I have laying around, and look at the range of hardness between all the lobes on each cam. Because they have survived, I would conclude that anything in that range would be acceptable.
From your testing, you will know what is good, and any reading from a new cam that is softer than the softest lobe you have tested would be suspicious and require further evaluation.
I don't know what process the manufacturers use to harden the cams and lifters, so I can't say whether or not it is worth the trouble to grind a lifter or cam lobe to test it. If the surface is induction hardened, the hardening will just be the surface of the lobe. By looking at the type of damage to the lifter base, I am guessing that they are induction hardened.
The tester I made, uses a 1/4 inch bearing ball, and has an excellent return bounce, (coefficient of restitution), making it easy to read the scale accurately. I think a 3/8 or 1/2 inch bearing ball would work quite well.
It can also be used to check the hardness of disk brake rotors. Some years ago, I was able to get free replacement rotors from GM because I was able to show them that the rotors that came with the truck were defective.
Bob

 

Having built many engines over the years for myself, and customers, I have not seen lifter failure as bad as this.

I know this is after the fact, but I have never known a lifter to be filled with oil by soaking. Build pressure with the correct tool. I have always used white lithium grease on the cam and lifters.

To me this was a lifter failure, then cam.

Just what has worked for me.

 

I too was taught to never soak lifters, just pre-lube the engine.

 

My reasoning for not soaking lifters in oil is that I believe the lobe contact face of the lifter and the lobe need to be completely degreased with a good solvent on a rag so that no oil is there to interfere with the adherence of the cam lube to these wear surfaces. Then, as you put the cam in lube the lobes and bearing surfaces with a good quality cam lube, then lube the lifter face and OD as you insert lifters. Make sure the lifters will spin in their bores. When assembly is completed, using a good break in oil, preoil by turning oil pump and have someone slowly turning the crank till all the lifters are full of oil, adjust rockers using the EOIC method, and continue preoil till rockers get oil. Make sure timing is fairly close and carb has filled with gas before you fire it up. When you fire it up keep it up above 2500 for about 20-30 min. and it should be fine.
Last sbc I built, I used solid lifters in order to be able to use the lifters with the .012" hole in the face for better cam lobe oiling, and it's been doing great for several years.

 

This scares the bejeebeez out of me. I just bought a brand new cam and lifters from Comp. I bought the red assy lube amd the additive for break in. It's a small cam by todays standards, but this worries me. I am dreading the start up. I have a brand new 3x2 on there also. Ugh.

 

First I would think that you could have the cam and some of the remaining lifters tested for hardness. I assume that if the other lobes are hardened, the failed lobes would also be hardened as well. Seems unlikely that 2 lobes on a cam would not be hardened but the rest are. Same with the lifters, it seems unlikely that 2 out of a set would not be hardened, but the rest all are. Find a shop that will do this for you and take the parts to them.

Second, I never heard of the hertzian load on the lifter lobe changes with rpm, and that's why they want a higher RPM. That seems crazy to me. Why would the hertzian pressures change with RPM? Makes no sense. I always understood the reason for 2500 rpm is due to 1. splash oiling of he camshaft/lifter interface, you need rpm's to get sufficient quantity of oil up into that interface; and 2. proper formation of a good hydrodynamic wedge of oil to lift and separate the parts and prevent contact/wear. Formation of that wedge relies on speed of movement and on viscosity of the oil, both have to be correct or contact between the parts will happen.

 

For Chevy guys Speedway sells 1.3 ratio rockers that lower spring pressure for cam/lifter break in. There not cheap at 239 bucks, but neither is re-rebuilding a engine.Once the engine is past break in swap out for 1.5-1.6 rockers.

 

You can rent them for cam beark-in from Straub Technilogies also.

Last I heard, the same investment group that owns Comp Cams now owns both Crane and Lunati.
There has been guys over on the Team Chevelle board having the same break-in problems with Lunati Cams.

 

Definitely tear it down, just went through this on a Hemi. I debated full teardown, but glad I did, one piston/cylinder had lots of galling/trash, and that wrist pin was way tight from debris. Only was clacking a minute....

 

You guys are not instilling confidence.....

 

Its difficult to believe , with all the internet talk of cam failures , that the major manufacturers don't know / haven't investigated / don't give a damn about what &why the failures are caused & they don't have a solution? While most everyone gets mentioned , comp seems to be mentioned most often ....
I have heard that Howard's sells a no fault cam & kit , you break it , they give you a new one ??

 

I broke in two small block Chevies in the last two weeks, Both flat tappet , both had Comp cams in em. First one was an original 69 302 with a solid cam the other was a 350 with a 262H . Made sure all the lifters freely rotated in the block on assembly and used comp lube on the cam and lifters. the 302 got Brad Penn break in oil , the 350 got comp break in oil. No problems whatsoever..

 

I don't understand all this cam, lifter failure either. I have never experienced a new cam and lifter failure. Ever, And I have never used break in oil in a new engine. I use moly on the lobes and on the lifter bottoms. Pre oil and let her rip. I guess i have been lucky. And yes they were Isky's and comp cams. Howards and Engle also. But on a big lift cam and even triple springs I have left an inner spring out for break in. But some of those were BIG flat tappets. Just saying theres crud already in the engine or something else causing this. Those cam manufacturers would not be in business long if there stuff was junk. Guarantee you when I fire a new engine I get the timing light on it right away and have a fan in front of the radiator on high and the paint is smoking off it at 2500 to 3000. When I shut it down it's for it's first oil and filter change.

 

I am the same way Lippy. I didn't even know there was a break in procedure, until all of the cam failures. We just started them on the stand with open headers and dad always had us to vary the throttle from idle to say 3500. Up and down for 20 minutes. We have always been lucky I guess.

 

Just to be clear, I have had cam failure on two engines in 35 years . both in the same time period. It does not apply to the OP's post . It was right when machine shops went from hot tanks to burn and shot peen . I lost a 350 with a factory 2178 solid cam the other was a 454 with a Schnieder cam . The problem was that the burn and blast method raised burrs on the lifter bores stopping the lifters from rotating in the bore's. I spend countless hours now when building an engine to make sure the lifters rotate freely.

 

I agree that 2 lobes out of 16 would have different heat treat is unlikely. Since the cam is heat treated as one, how could that happen.

I do question the lifters though. Crane didn't make them, they are outsourced from who knows where and the probability of all 16 lifters of the set installed, being from the same manufactured lot are most likely very low. I believe this is where the problem started.

Bill

 

Two buddies just lost a BBC and Pontiac 428 with lifters that look that bad also. The BBC was a national parts store that he buys from because their cheap and offer warranty. He also bought their oil and didn't add any zinc additive. Pontiac was using a mild cam (068) and parts store lifters. Oil was a parts store brand but he did add zinc. Now both motors are torn down completely. Iv'e never had a problem in 50 yrs knock on wood. Been using Valvoline VR 1 oil and an ancient container of Isky lube.

 

It is my understanding that the Comp Performance Group acquired only the non valvetrain portions of Crane Cams, and market them under the FAST Banner. Crane Cams is a completely separate entity, and is in no way related to the Comp Group. Comp owns Comp Cams, Edelbrock, FAST, ZEX Nitrous, RHS and Powerhouse.

Lunati is owned by an investment group, of which one of the owners of Comp Performance Group is a member, but Lunati is not part of the Comp Performance Group, and is not housed under the same roof, nor associated in any way.

The Comp Group save Edelbrock is housed in Tennessee, Crane is in Florida, and Lunati is in Mississippi.

 

As far as Brad Penn oil goes, I had two engines one a 454 and the other a Pontiac 462 develop lifter ticking after climbing long hills.. Once I pulled over and let the engines idle the ticking went away. In both engines I changed to Mobil 1 and that issue went away completely in both engines.. It was suggested that wax in the oil causes it to foam.. As far as I'm concerned, I'll never use Brad Penn in any engine I own. Your not hurting my feelings if you use it in yours...

 

the last few engines i have built i have used howards cams(competition products) and have had great sucsess they have very knowagable people on their tech line and they have addressed any issues or questions i have with one call i will stay with them they will also grind any cam profile you can send them the number for

 

one more thing i bought a set of scorpion solid lifters made by johnson from competition products recently for a small block ford motor

 

I still suggest along with the hardness test which is very wise to still inspect the crown area . All this coupled together is good stuff to know , threads like this is how we all learn ! Break in 1.2 rockers are what I use on my sbc’s . Flux

 

I am going to share the following link because I have gone through the emotional and financial stress that is the result of dealing with cam and lifter destruction. Keep in mind there is valuable information to had from it, but because it also is a form of advertising along with the hard information it also has an equal amount of 'soft sell'. What you take away from it is up to you, and how well you can seperate the two. As I have no dog in the hunt, I can only tell you it presents some facts germane to all that has been discussed here, in addition to one element that has not: how additives in oil effect the inner working of an engine, and more specifically how they protect a cam and lifters.
https://www.hyperlube.com/blog/engine/the-effects-of-zinc-oil-additives-on-older-engines/

 

Minute amount of info in an ocean of repetitive ad print , reads like " click bait " copy .No offence directed to fortynut...

 

While I totally agree with Hyper Lube's statements about the need for ZDDP in engines with high performance valve springs and flat tappets, I'm not at all receptive to using an additive to get that needed ZDDP.
In fact I remember reading somewhere online of a test done comparing friction reducing capabilities of a modern oil with a level of ZDDP still allowed (at the time of the test) by the OEMs and EPA, but reduced from flat tappet days, and the same oil with an additive sold to increase the ZDDP for use in engines with flat tappets and hipo valve springs. The additive used actually reduced the cam and lifter protection and increased friction.
My experience with flat tappets used in street driven hipo engines with streetable cam grinds and compatible valve springs for rpm red lines up to about 6800-7000 and good quality parts has been good. Use a good cam lube on lobes and lifters and compatible break in oil and additive along with careful cleaning and assembly. Preoil engine oil galleys, etc. time the engine, and get fuel to the carb, and place a fan in front for added cooling, attach timing light and fire it off, keeping rpm up and varied 2000-3000 for about 20-30 min.. This approach has always worked for me. Then I use a good oil with the ZDDP already in it, no additives just as it comes from the bottle.
For competition only engines with longer duration cams with higher lifts requiring heavy valve springs, I would consider either removing inner springs and/or the low ratio rockers where available for initial break in.

 

If you want to catch a bad camshaft or set of lifters all you have to do is put a couple studs into the valve cover holes and just lay the valve covers on the engine to contain the oil, while its running pull each valve cover and make sure all the push rods are spinning. If there not shut the engine down and see what's wrong because that valve is about to go bad on you...
A couple of those long winged valve cover wing nuts will also work..