Technical Rethinking my use of electronic ignitions

I always see these threads and laugh to myself. I haven't touched the Mopar electronic distributor or "orange box" in my '57 since 2006. I remember it well because I wanted to get the car on the road before I started law school and I put the engine back in. Same can be said for my Oldsmobiles with the Perronix. I drove my 61 nearly 5000 miles last summer, and polished off about 1000 miles in the past 3 weeks with my 56. Not so much as a hiccup, and strong steady spark.

 

Awesome. That Mopar ignition is about the most bullet-proof setup you can have IMHO. I'm going to have to try that.

 

Can't leave the ignition on without the engine running with a points & condenser system either, fellas, and for exactly the same reason.

There's no mention of this "feature" in the shop or operator's manual, at least Ford. I guess they expected more out of the customer or something.

Sometimes I think people confuse reliability with the necessity of periodic inspection or maintenance; they are certainly related but they aren't quite blood brothers. If a complex component or something like that still works as advertised 75 or 100 years later I'd say its reliability is pretty damn good.

The trend by automakers has long been streamlining assembly and number of components, checks and services required, because nobody wants to do that stuff, it costs money, and it's a way of keeping manufacturing costs down.

Spark plugs and shock absorbers cannot be disassembled and cleaned any longer as was the case, at some point they will just weld the hood closed, "No User Serviceable Parts Inside" and it will be "See Your Dealer" for the whole shootin' match.

 

An electronic ignition system that dies from operator error, is a badly designed system. This seems to be common on aftermarket systems, but not OEM systems.

Sent from my Trimline

 

The OEM stuff is IMO considerably more durable than what's available as replacements in the aftermarket. IIRC, the OEMs had to warranty those for 100K as the ignition is considered part of the emissions system. Not the case for the aftermarket stuff, and quality is all over the map. Rock Auto lists four different manufacturers of replacement DuraSpark ignition modules, with prices starting at $20 and going up to $60, all for supposedly the same part. Same story for the GM HEI module; five different manufacturers, and prices from $10 to $30. You can't tell me there isn't quality/durability differences between them...

I was an early adopter of electronic ignition; bought my first system in '73. The first ones were LED/photo cell based and photo cell failures proved to be too common, so by the late '70s I backed off for a while. I will say the external box versions seemed to hold up better than the 'all under the cap' types. Once OEM systems became available out of the yards, I went back. Like you, I found the aftermarket modules weren't as reliable as the OEM stuff. Another thing was Ford kept changing the module wiring/design (what color is the damn plug?...), so 'upgrades' usually meant re-wiring was involved. I finally made the leap to a MSD 6A box coupled to the DuraSpark distributor and have never looked back. I can still run the early-type cap, and if the box is only semi-hidden, it will take a sharp-eyed observer to notice the wire count at the distributor/coil is more than normal. Noticeable improvement in starting/idling and you may even see a bit better fuel mileage, and that's with a OEM coil. At the risk of sounding like an advertisement, there's good reasons why MSD is considered as the benchmark in aftermarket ignitions.

I've never seen the attraction of the GM HEI. Big and bulky, fitment in older cars can be an issue. IMO it looks particularly ugly on a Ford motor. I suppose its popularity is because they're cheap, common and has a one-wire connection...

Chrysler seems to have gotten it right, you rarely hear any complaints about their electronic ignition.

As for you points aficionados, if that floats your boat have at it. But the trouble with points is they immediately start degrading as soon as you use them. Sure, it's a slow process, but it still occurs. Points spring pressure means wear on the distributor, and spark scatter if it's worn too much. And finding quality parts for these is no longer easy. If you're running a GM 'window' type cap and still have a dwell meter, you can monitor/correct adjustment pretty easily, but that's not an option for the rest of us. With my bad back, the less leaning over the motor I do the better I like it.

 

The factory stuff has had thousands of hours of reliability testing. They have a whole R&D department. The aftermarket manufacturers are sometimes , a hobbyist that see a need for a niche and so they go into business.

They use the customers as their R&D dept. Not all, but a lot of them do. I am grateful that people are willing to step out and try new ventures, for the sake of the hobby.

I do lean towards proven factory stuff though and I am never the first guy to stand up and buy the newest gadget. I am always about 3 versions behind on my Iphone.

I have always thought about trying the dual point with an electronic module to drive it. I would like to see a tech feature on that. I probably have a few of those dual points laying around.

 

I might have to look into the MSD box but then again there could be issues with the pick up coils if a new OEM one can not be found,I am going to leave the Duraspark system in my Sunliner for now but soon the 351 will be gone and another Y block will be going in and it will stay points for awhile.

 

I didn't understand the finer ah, points, in how a distributor actually works. The bushings and everything else were all wallered out, and couldn't figure out why the dwell never measured the same twice in a row. I will say they never failed to start or left me stranded, and I drove that thing everywhere including pretty far out into the sticks, miles and miles from paved roads.

Installed an Ignitor module 20 years ago, and it's worked fine and since swapped it into a fresh distributor along the way. Keep a set of points and the rest of it in the glove box "just in case." Had the distributor itself been in good shape I doubt I'd have changed but can't see any particular reason to switch back, either. They do provide a noticeably hotter spark at the plugs by use of a higher output ignition coil and supplying fulltime battery voltage to the primary winding.

As somebody mentioned though, the higher primary/secondary output voltage in this arrangement will quickly reveal any defects in the older points style distributor caps or other components, wires, etc. The OEM went to much larger spacing or diameter of the distributor terminals for a reason.

 

The more I think about it I never had any points ignition system make me walk home but the electronic systems sure have,a couple timing chains letting go make me walk home too.

 

The main purpose of dual points was to increase the dwell which would result in a hotter spark at high rpm. The downside is the coil ran hotter at low speeds. The better electronic systems address both of those issues, so you'd only need one set of points, you could leave one set out.

I've never had any problems with the hall effect sensor, with both OEM and aftermarket units, but that's me. I'll also note that it's possible on the '57-up Y-block distributors to install the guts out of a later DuraSpark into the early housing. To get the DuraSpark apart you need to pull the drive gear off and pull the shaft/mechanical advance/sensor plate as an assembly so you don't booger up the advance springs.

 

I thought (probably wrong) that one set of points was a trigger of sorts?

 

the OEM system in my wife's old Dart left her stuck a few times...although it would usually start working again after I wiggled some things and swore at it.

Also they had the fun adjustable pickup coil gap, which can cause problems when things wear out.

 

Here's an article that covers it.
https://www.racingjunk.com/news/converting-from-points-to-electronic-ignition/

 

If you look carefully at a dual-point distributor, the point sets are staggered. Measure about how many degrees of rotation it takes for one set of points to open then close; check either set, it will be the same for each set individually.
Then measure how many degrees it takes for both sets to be open at the same time. It will be fewer degrees. This increases the 'on time' for the coil, allowing it to reach higher or full saturation which increases the spark energy. Again, this is only a issue at high rpm and does depend some on the coil design; at slower speeds the points operate slower, so 'on time' goes up as rpm goes down.

The amount of time it takes a coil to reach full saturation is fixed and independent of rpm. Once the coil reaches saturation, all additional power into it is essentially going into a dead short and is converted to heat.

 

I owned motor vehicles from '52-'77 with points exclusively, and have used everything from point files and fingernail files to the striking surfaces of book matches to buff them enough to get where I could go and get another set. Always preferred a piece of a brown paper sack to clean them after a filing or sanding.
In '78 I bought my first new car, a Mercury Zephyr Z7 coupe with a 302 and electronic ignition. The 2nd Iranian oil crisis resulted in a big slowdown in the auto manufacturing work and I go laid off as a toolmaker, finding work that involved a LOT of miles in my '73 GMC p'up w 350 sbc. Got tired of the having to change plugs and points every 8-10K mjles to maintain decent passing performance on the hilly and twisting 2 lane roads of GA and installed an early MSD box that worked with the points only triggering the box, which fired the coil with a much hotter spark My engine would happily spin to valve float rpm with plugs having 40-50 K miles on them and the points. Sure helped when using 3rd gear in a "granny low" 4spd to pass using a 3.08 rear and 33" tires!
From that point on I've always used the electronic stuff. Had a Ford Duraspark box fail at nearly 200K, and a MSD coil overheat and short out MSD said it was because I put the coil behind the instrument panel where it couldn't get enough air. When I pointed out to them that the installation instructions said mount it anywhere, they gave ne a new more than double the price endurance racing coil and shipped it free overnight express
Go ahead and spend hours searching for NOS/OEM points and condensers, and I'll stick with MSD.

 

Yes, I worked at a MC tune-up performance shop in the 70's for a while and I'd change about 3-4 sets of points every day. If anything went wrong with a tune up it was always the points or condenser. Usually the rubbing block would wear and everything went wacky. I couldn't wait for the electronic ignitions to come down in price so everyone could afford one.

I will admit I've had to change several HEI modules and coils over the years. They don't like the heat. It's Pertronix for me. Set it and forget it!

 

This is a very interesting thread. I'm debating on running points or electronic on my Cadillac 390. Whatever is more reliable stays.

 

If you have spare parts for the electronic setup, and can change it if needed, then it's probably more reliable. But this isn't a reliability forum, it's a traditional hot rod forum.

 

I’m going to run a Spalding Flamethrower in my 365, double the lot, points, coils , condensers and resistors, was a bit more work and a learning curve but what I’m into.
Not in the car yet but with a bit of maintenance, all should be good.

 

My 36 has a 64 327 in it for twenty years now, fired it up the very first time with a stock gm hei, and it has fired up every time since on that same stock hei, same module, can't complain. I've carried a spare module for twenty years, but it's still in the box, waiting. Yep, I'd say the electronic stuff is reliable.
I think the secret is grounds, my rad is grounded to the frame for electrolisis, engine grounded to body and frame, battery grounded to engine and frame with heavy cable, body grounded to frame with ten gauge wire, all my grounds are ten gauge, overkill maybe, but works for me....

 

Paul, put a relay in the ignition circuit [if you have good oil pressure ]

#30 goes to ignition switch
#85 is bridged to # 30
#87A goes to Coil/Ballast etc
#87 is left "dead as a dodo"
#86 splices into the oil pressure sender for a ground

[you can also use a "disconnect button" on #86 to start, but you're better off leaving it alone and always having oil pressure when it starts]


A VW flat 4 oil pressure sender switches off at 8 psi

 

This is a traditional site. I think. Lippy

 

Yes it is and that is why I am thinking about going back to a traditional ignition system,the Y block I got has a good generator on it and it might go in too. It will not be driven on long trips any more so no big deal to maintain the points.

 

About the last set of points I ran in my stuff was about 1975 (after my 1st car went away).
The last electronic ignition system I ran in my stuff was 2011, when my big blue truck got wrecked.
I never had a points system fail to where I couldn't get home.
I never have had an electronic ignition fail, though I carried extra parts that helped others get home.
I've never had one of the modern systems fail, though I do carry a black box in the tool box.
I've put a butt load of miles on the stuff I drive. I like OEM stuff, but that doesn't mean much anymore.
At this point in my life, I'm probably not going to fix anything on the side of the road (its a dangerous world out there these days), that is why I have AAA. To get something towed into a shop that may have died on the road, unless you have the parts, tools, and the ability to fix the system your using yourself, the chance of getting it fixed at a shop its been towed to is pretty slim, unless its a modern system. Gene

 

Agreed. Reliability is not the same thing as durability.

Reliability is consistency of operation over whatever timeframe, i.e. the thing always acts exactly the same, until it eventually stops. Durability is how long a thing lasts, while being used, and properly ought to take into account the necessity, ease, and cost of maintenance. A thing is infinitely durable if you can keep fixing it indefinitely, preferably easily and cheaply.

The two used to be bound very closely together, when the type of technology was such that it would be very hard to make a thing reasonably reliable without making it durable as well. Coming out of the technological tradition we call "traditional" we'll say a thing is "well made" when it is both reliable and durable. But that has changed.

I've speculated before how reliability is an advantage in military stuff, but durability isn't. Military stuff needs to be soldier-proof but shouldn't be too useful to the enemy if it gets captured. Add to that the fact that many military operations are of short duration, and the desirability of reliable kit which doesn't last very long becomes obvious, especially for a rich, industrialized state whose enemy isn't a rich, industrialized state. That happens to echo the need, in civilian production based on a business model predicated on demand which doesn't exist by itself, to absorb industrial output in some way. (Indeed the two are more closely related than that.)

There is something about elementary economics every hot rodder ought to understand. For the OEMs technological innovation is driven by two basic factors: market advantage through improved performance, and the structural need to reinvest profits in capital (thereby setting up barriers to entry as capitalization thresholds and cultivating what Ivan Illich called radical monopolies.) These two factors end up being mutually conditional: each is a precondition for the other. Therefore performance improvements generally only happen if they create opportunities for increasing required capitalization too. It is all seriously cartelizing and it is the reason the industry looks the way it does today.

Now, with the first factor, the OEMs are aligned to our interests. Points-and-condenser ignition has a number of weakness (cam/follower wear, arcing, float, etc.) we would also like to see addressed, so the fact that the OEMs deal with it at all is in our interest. With the second factor, however, our interests – as hot rodders and as consumers – and those of the OEMs are opposed to each other. If anything, we need decapitalization: we need keeping our stuff useful to require less capital investment, not more. Bottom line is, if we had the same resources at our disposal as the OEMs have we would have approached solving points-and-condenser ignition in a completely different way.

That "completely different way" represents a fundamental departure from a simple linear model of technological progress. Of course the same applies to any other innovation in automotive technology, or indeed any technology at all. And, in so far as innovations presuppose other innovations, the range for possible conjecture becomes complex but extremely broad.

I wouldn't be surprised if it still ended up involving a power transistor, though, if that were a generic chunk of semiconductor and little more.

 

My head hurts

 

Yep. In my +50 years of hot rod hobbying I have witnessed that 99.999999% of electrical problems are grounding deficiencies, just like 99.99999% of cooling problems are air flow deficiencies.

Weirdest electronic problem I ever had was with an aftermarket electronic system. I think maybe an Accel? Anyway it specified the distributor unit had to be grounded to the firewall, not the engine. That made no sense to me so I grounded it to a convenient engine screw. Burned the module. I got a new one and grounded it to the firewall and has run great ever since. Still trying to figure out how those transistors could see me screwing a wire to the engine!! Talented little buggers.

 

Chrysler distributor and 6AL MSD box and coil...No issues...If I could afford fuel injection on my blower would leave these carbs in the dust...

 

Points and Condenser in the distributor and a spare set in the glove box is the way to go if you want to never get stranded on the side of the road.

 

I use a 3-way grounding system on all of my builds and have not had an ignition module fail in more than 20 years, factory or aftermarket. A starter bolt at the engine block is the common "star" grounding point in the vehicle. Attached to it are the negative cable from the battery, a heavy cable to a clean metal bolted area on a frame rail, and a heavy cable to a clean metal bolted area on the firewall. I also make sure the unpainted distributor body is well grounded to the engine block through an unpainted mounting clamp and bolt.